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The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters (karma: 7)  en>fr fr>en
By Bombs_Away_LeMaymember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 12051, member since Mon Jan 06, 2003
On Wed Sep 21, 2005 07:56 PM
Edited by Bombs_Away_LeMay (53615) on 2005-09-21 20:01:00
Voters of Germany, I salute you! On Sunday you delivered a fair, constructive and intelligent verdict on your political class. The fact that all respectable commentators in the German and European establishment agreed in declaring this election to have been an utter disaster — “the worst of all possible outcomes” is the cliché of the hour — merely confirms the democracy’s main premise: the collective wisdom of the people is usually wiser than the conventional wisdom of a self-regarding elite. <br /> <br /> The German election was a triumph of democracy in the same way as the referendums in France and the Netherlands. Just like those referendums, it has created a political stalemate, neutered diplomacy and paralysed the economic reform process. But political paralysis was exactly what German voters wanted, and quite rightly so.<br /> <br /> With respect to reforming and transforming Germany's economy, this is now impossible. Monetary and fiscal policies are now controlled by the European Central Bank and the European Commission and not by national parliaments. <br /> <br /> As long as the ECB and the Commission [the Brussels politburo to those of us in the free world] keep control of monetary and fiscal policies, national economic reforms in Europe will be doomed to failure.

Three cheers for the Germans
Anatole Kaletsky
The Times
September 22, 2005

The remedy was clear - but the politicians were clueless and deserved what they got from the voters

VOTERS OF GERMANY, I salute you! On Sunday you delivered a fair, constructive and intelligent verdict on your political class. The fact that all respectable commentators in the German and European establishment agreed in declaring this election to have been an utter disaster — “the worst of all possible outcomes” is the cliché of the hour — merely confirms the democracy’s main premise: the collective wisdom of the people is usually wiser than the conventional wisdom of a self-regarding elite.

The German election was a triumph of democracy in the same way as the referendums in France and the Netherlands. Just like those referendums, it has created a political stalemate, neutered diplomacy and paralysed the economic reform process. But political paralysis was exactly what German voters wanted — and quite rightly so.

Germans were right to vote for political paralysis for the same reason that the French and the Dutch were right to immobilise Europe: because German politicians were all, without exception, determined to push their country in the wrong direction, and if you are moving in the wrong direction towards the edge of a precipice, immobility is a better option than dynamism. This was true in the spring when the French and Dutch voted to stop Europe’s headlong rush into the precipice of federalism. It was even more true on Sunday, when Germans voted to stop their politicians pushing the economy over the cliff from stagnation into outright depression.

This may sound perverse, since conventional wisdom has long maintained that a strong government, preferably led by Angela Merkel, was an indispensable condition for Germany to pull itself out of the economic doldrums, just as Britain did in 1979. For example, the Financial Times reported on its front page: “Germany’s election ended in a stalemate, casting doubt on the country’s ability to enact the policy changes needed to bolster faltering economic growth.” The statement that policy reforms would boost economic growth was offered not as an opinion, but as a matter of plain fact.

Yet if we consider these policies more closely, it is obvious that economic reforms of the kind debated in the election — higher taxes, cuts in wages, reductions in pensions — would make Germany’s dire situation even worse. If these were the policies that could pull a country out of recession, then Herbert Hoover would be remembered as the greatest US President of the 20th century and Montagu Norman would be more celebrated as an economist than Maynard Keynes.

To propose an increase in VAT in a country that has suffered from falling consumption and mass unemployment for the best part of a decade is not just “controversial”, “unpopular” or “politically risky”, as German political commentators have now belatedly concluded; it is irresponsible and destructive. When Frau Merkel proposed to combine the increased VAT with higher health charges, lower pensions and removal of tax breaks for lower-income families and homeowners — all in the midst of the worst recession that Germany has suffered since the 1930s — she was not just making a political blunder. She was engaging in an act of economic vandalism, and the top priority of German voters was to stop her. This seems a perfectly adequate explanation for the failure of the Christian Democrats, who recorded their lowest share of the vote since 1945.

Unfortunately for the German voters, the other parties’ economic policies were almost as bad. Gerhard Schröder, having presided over seven years of rising unemployment, could promise nothing more encouraging than a continuation of his failed policies, but with greater gusto. Given that the Greens were totally implicated with Schröder’s economic failure, while the Liberals failed to distance themselves from Merkel’s sado-monetarism, the only hope for the voters was to tie all their politicians in knots.

While political paralysis was a perfectly rational choice last Sunday for German voters, it offers no hope for the future. So how could Germany respond?

The answer is quite clear. German politicians of all parties must understand that they have made two fundamental, but easily remedied, mistakes. First, they have forgotten the fundamental economic lesson of the great depression that Keynes discovered in the 1930s, and which has never been refuted or even questioned by serious economists since then: an economy suffering from mass unemployment and weak consumption must be cured by boosting economic demand. No serious economist would dispute that an economy like Germany today needs a boost to demand.

But the symbiotic relationship between supply-side policies and demand management also leads to a second, much more cheerful, conclusion. In an economy where consumer demand is growing, supply-side reforms will make it far more efficient and prosperous. In such conditions, economic reforms can actually be popular and can get politicians re-elected.

There is one, and only one, requirement for Germany to restore its voters’ faith in politics, as well as its national self-esteem and its diplomatic role in the world: Germany needs an emergency programme to expand economic activity and reduce unemployment — not with vague promises of more “flexible” labour markets and more “competitive” markets sometime in the future, but with firm commitments to faster economic growth, driven by expansionary monetary and fiscal policies, implemented right now.

The only problem with this prescription is, of course, that monetary and fiscal policies are now controlled by the European Central Bank and the European Commission and not by national parliaments. As long as the ECB and the Commission keep control of monetary and fiscal policies, national economic reforms in Europe will be doomed to failure. And European voters will be right to treat with contempt the national politicians who allow this usurpation to continue.

19 Replies to The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters

re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By MichaelE Comments: 8622, member since Sat May 14, 2005
On Wed Sep 21, 2005 08:45 PM
what a complete pile of steaming horsepoop. Germany needs expanisionist policies? Hellooo???? They're already running a 4% deficit. That's not expanstionist? Also he claims that economic reforms like liberalization of the labor market can only be successful in an economic expansionary cycle. ummmm, how good were the economies of Britian and America when Thatcher and Reagan carried out desperately needed economic reforms in both countries? They were both in the toilet. How did they both respond? They've been kicking the crap out of schlerotic Western Europe ever since. The best thing the Germans could do would be to give the FDP alone an outright majority. That will never happen of course and the country will continue its long and painful decline.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters (karma: 2)  en>fr fr>en
By luv2hate_em Comments: 11381, member since Tue Apr 08, 2003
On Wed Sep 21, 2005 09:15 PM
This is wonderful news from krautland.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Bombs_Away_LeMaymember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 12051, member since Mon Jan 06, 2003
On Wed Sep 21, 2005 09:33 PM
Hi Micheal,

No, he's right.

Germans are really, really frugal and extremely careful about spending their money. Shit, Germany had (still has?) one of the lowest number of credit card users in the western world for a hell of a long time. Germans despize buying anything on credit.

The 4% deficit is also sort of a misnomer. How many billions of that goes to keep Eastern Germans on the dole? Lots and lots and that's money doing nothing but feeding, clothing and housing folks. I am not saying it's not right to do, just pointing it out.

Then there's the billions in free money Germany gives away to the rest of the EU each year. Since WWII Germany has donated more in aid money that was demanded of it in the Versailles Treaty of WW ONE-with interest.

Then there's the ludicrously generous welfare state that Germans up until a year a go or so were their God-given right and not a privilege. That taps untold billions every years. It all adds up.

What the author is talking about is expansionist as in introducing large scale consumerism as in the UK/US/AUS etc. I can't recall the figures but well over half of our entire country's GDP comes from consumer demand. In Germany it's just the opposite. There it's largely exports and corporate to corporate business that fuels (-ed) their economy.

So the writer is saying that the German government should foster a far larger consumer society to promote economic growth.

It's never been really tried in Germany as policy, really. I agree with him that it should.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By MichaelE Comments: 8622, member since Sat May 14, 2005
On Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:34 PM
"So the writer is saying that the German government should foster a far larger consumer society to promote economic growth.

It's never been really tried in Germany as policy, really. I agree with him that it should."


In order to foster a consumer society, several changes will have to be made. Firstly, the government is going to have to stop taxing all of people's money away. Secondly, they are going to have to allow stores to be open....WHEN PEOPLE ACTUALLY WANT TO BUY THINGS! I know, I know, its a shocking concept. Still, its one they are only now dimly grasping. They instituted RADICAL reform a few years ago to allow stores to stay open until 8 pm on weekdays and until 4pm on Saturdays. Have I mentioned lately how much I hate the Ladenschlussgesetz? :)

My family originally came from Germany and I've lived there a few times. They still have this outdated notion that government must protect the workers...just forget about consumers. Thinking that people actually want things and that they are intelligent enough to decide what they want......why that could lead to "Amerikanische Verhaeltnisse"! I'm sure Germany doesn't want any of that. Much better to go on with a stagnant economy and a declining population.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By Krauty Comments: 738, member since Thu Feb 19, 2004
On Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:28 PM
Trying to avoid to buy anything on credit is a major part of the German mentality. There is absolutly no way to change this behavior in the next 20 years. Even with a big tax reduction, 5 million more jobs and a higher salary for everyone, it would not be changed.

And I like it that way. This gives us many reserves and we are quite independent from macro-economical trends (real estate bubble in some countries) and of course we pay it with smaller growth. But our exports can limit these negative effects, so it's not a big problem, only for some politicians, who want to have good statistics for their election campaigns.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By brit45 Comments: 11704, member since Sat Mar 15, 2003
On Thu Sep 22, 2005 01:20 PM
Edited by brit45 (59698) on 2005-09-22 13:21:57
This "so called" real-estate bubble has enabled Britain to become the biggest home owning nation in the European Union, owning large parts of French countryside, French property, Spanish land, Spanish property.

In Eastern Europe, the British are the fasting growing land and property owning group from the rest of the EU.

In the USA we are also the largest owning group from Europe.

You work it out!
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By Krauty Comments: 738, member since Thu Feb 19, 2004
On Thu Sep 22, 2005 02:50 PM
Edited by Krauty (73999) on 2005-09-22 14:52:20
So what? Is buying land in foreign countries a sign of a certain quality or strength? To me it only shows that their own country is not "good enough" for these people. This is not meant to be a criticism of GB, because Germans also buy houses in Spain. But in my opinion it's clearly not a healthy development.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Bombs_Away_LeMaymember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 12051, member since Mon Jan 06, 2003
On Thu Sep 22, 2005 07:53 PM
Hi Krauty,

Trying to avoid to buy anything on credit is a major part of the German mentality. There is absolutely no way to change this behavior in the next 20 years. Even with a big tax reduction, 5 million more jobs and a higher salary for everyone, it would not be changed.


I'm not so sure. SOMETHING has to kick start Germany AG. What's wrong with Germany's own consumers-it's citizens-prying open their wallets or discovering things such as bank interest rates and home equity loans-there's nothing inherently wrong with those you know.

It's part of a far larger problem: Germans need to be less risk-averse, A LOT less risk averse. A shitload more Germans should be going out and trying to start successful GMBH's. If they fail the first time around, they should dust themselves off and try again. Did you know that not even one German company has gone public [listed itself on the DAX] in over two+ years??

There's no brilliance in being tight-fisted, Krauty, only mediocrity. Can Germany ever produce a Bill Gates or a Richard Branson, and the hundreds of thousands each of those men employ? No, Germany cannot.

The author of the article is right by saying that reform in Germany must be fundamental. Germany's best and brightest should not be afraid to innovate and take risks. Unfortunately, in left wing Germany these days, stuff like that is frowned upon as "chasing money"-a bad thing to be seen as doing these days in Germany. Same is true in France and wretched Brussels.

As a result, "job dumping" by the tens of thousands is occurring. Untold thousands of good paying jobs are leaving Germany, never to come back, going to China, the orient, New Europe, you name it. I have news for you Krauty, if people in Germany don't innovate and take risks to create new industries to replace all those jobs that are leaving-and will leave given how expensive it is for companies to operate in Germany-your Heimat is in deep, deep structural trouble.

Regards
Ten bucks says that NaziStan and fWance will try and block these changes, as well.. en>fr fr>en
By AntiFrench Comments: 50103, member since Sat Aug 25, 2001
On Thu Sep 22, 2005 08:20 PM
EC chief vows to scrap 'absurd' rules
By David Rennie in Brussels
(Filed: 22/09/2005)


The head of the European Commission vowed yesterday to hold a bonfire of "absurd" EU directives and rules, saying that Brussels should not be a "bureaucratic monster".

Jose Manuel Barroso, a former Portuguese prime minister, who took office last year trumpeting his pro-business credentials, declared that crafting "better regulation" was one of the central themes of a strategy meeting this week of all 25 European commissioners. The group retired to a chateau in the Belgian countryside to debate ways out of the EU's current economic and political doldrums.


Jose Manuel Barroso
Mr Barroso said: "We believe that existing legislation must be simplified in a determined and ambitious fashion."


Next week, the commissioner for enterprise and industry, Günter Verheugen, will present his colleagues with a list of 69 pending legislative proposals that are to be scrapped before they reach the statute books, after a review of more than 200 draft measures, at various stages in the Brussels decision-making process.

Those for the axe include one to regulate exposure to natural sunlight - a proposal that became a "joke", in the words of Mr Barroso, after allegations that it would outlaw bare-chested builders, or force Bavarian barmaids to wear shirts with high collars.

Other proposals that failed to make it through the screening process include regulations governing package sizes for coffee and chicory, rules on the minimum educational qualifications for airline cabin crews, and detailed rules on sales promotions by door-to-door salesmen.

Some of the laws are not absurd, officials said, but were drafted without a proper assessment of their economic impact, such as a regulation banning weekend shifts for lorry drivers.

Mr Barroso also pledged to trim the EU's "acquis communautaire" - Brussels jargon for the body of EU law currently in force, which stretches to 83,000 pages.

"So far we have been looking only at pending legislation, but then we will go through systematically the whole Community acquis. We are against the idea of maintaining what is bureaucratic, obsolete or absurd," he said.

With the EU suffering one of its worst crises of confidence for many years, the crushing weight of red tape has been identified by Mr Barroso as a major public relations disaster.

All bureaucracies suffered from an in-built drive towards law-making, he said, and Brussels was no exception. Commission officials had now "understood that this kind of thing is being used by eurosceptics and europhobes against the European idea".

" I am not putting in question the need for legislation, and in some circumstances, we are going to come with more," Mr Barroso said. "I am sure that some will say we are doing too much, some will say you are not doing enough. That's the usual thing."

Mr Barroso spoke on the day that the commission unveiled proposals for clean-air regulations that would cost nearly £5 billion a year from 2020, when fully implemented.

david.rennie@telegraph.co.uk



news.telegraph.co.uk . . .
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By Krauty Comments: 738, member since Thu Feb 19, 2004
On Fri Sep 23, 2005 05:39 PM
Hi Bombs,

I'm not so sure. SOMETHING has to kick start Germany AG. What's wrong with Germany's own consumers-it's citizens-prying open their wallets or discovering things such as bank interest rates and home equity loans-there's nothing inherently wrong with those you know.

I never said that the Germany behavior in this area is ideal, almost all extreme things are not good. You can compare it with the other extreme, the American consumer, who makes us Europeans happy, but he also weakens himself in the future and makes himself more vulnerable to economic trends. An American-German consument might be the best. :)

Did you know that not even one German company has gone public [listed itself on the DAX] in over two+ years??

We had new initial public offers in the last years, but only a few. That's understandable, if I would own a company I would wait for a good economic climate before I would take that step. An IPO directly into the DAX is nearly impossible, with the exception of Bertelsmann we have no (?) big company which is not a stock corporation.

Can Germany ever produce a Bill Gates or a Richard Branson, and the hundreds of thousands each of those men employ? No, Germany cannot.

Of course we can and we have. In its long industrial history, Germany has had some of the most notable entrepreneurs. Just look in a dictionary.

And German companies belong today to the best and most productive in the world. Why do you think Germany get all the positive headlines in newspapers like "The Economist"? It's not because of our political reforms.

Americans have Microsoft, we have SAP. You have UPS, we have DLH (Deutsche Post). You have Ford and GM, we have Daimer-Chrysler, VW, BMW and Porsche. Sorry, I don't want to go on listing German companies which belong to the top of the world.

Unfortunately, in left wing Germany these days, stuff like that is frowned upon as "chasing money"-a bad thing to be seen as doing these days in Germany.

Do you know anything about Germany? Do you believe anything some idiot writes in an article? Just ask yourself one question: If the statement above is true, why is Germany the third largest economy in the world. Why are we still export champion in the world despite of seven years with a red-green government? Why was Schröder called "Genosse der Bosse" and why do so many managers in the economy love him more than Frau Merkel of the CDU?

Come on, stop thinking in deprecated terms like left or right. Are you still in some sort of class fights of the 19th century?

As a result, "job dumping" by the tens of thousands is occurring. Untold thousands of good paying jobs are leaving Germany, never to come back, going to China, the orient, New Europe, you name it.

Yes and no.

Yes, we lost thousands of jobs, mostly jobs where good education is not necessary. But we would have lost them anyway in the next years, it's a natural development. For example, we have no clothing industry since the 1970s.

No, most managers talk with the unions, if a company gets in trouble. In most cases no jobs are transferred. There are also first cases, where jobs outsourced to Eastern Europe come back to Germany, because of our higher quality and better productivity.

I have news for you Krauty, if people in Germany don't innovate and take risks to create new industries to replace all those jobs that are leaving-and will leave given how expensive it is for companies to operate in Germany-your Heimat is in deep, deep structural trouble.

You are late, the changes already happened. Just read the right-wing Economist, there it is explained in a better way, then I could, because, as you know, my English is not sufficient.

The people themselves reformed their country with the companies they work for. We don't need any politicians and we don't need to wait for their reforms. In my country the economy is seperated from the poltics. (Although some reforms, would be helpful, but only if they don't destroy our social balance, which is very very precious for us.)
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By Nonogre Comments: 2666, member since Wed Dec 22, 2004
On Fri Sep 23, 2005 05:50 PM
If you look the abstention rate in Germany and USA, you think that Germany is a democracy in very good health...

I know, a lot of members on this forum are pissed of with the results of this election. Yes! Angela Merkel who supports almost all the necon ideology as lost her popularity just when German understood that she supports this ideology! What a big failure!

It is democracy and german politicians deal with it with a lot of maturity.

It is an exemple, not something to be ashamed of.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By MichaelE Comments: 8622, member since Sat May 14, 2005
On Fri Sep 23, 2005 06:20 PM
Krauty,
I don't deny that many German companies are world class or that Germany has a large number of very skilled engineers. The point is not the fortune of this or that particular company however. It is the economy as a whole that is important. By that measurement, Germany has performed exceptionally poorly by any standard since the early 90's-though the country started fading in the late 70's. Before that, Germany was one of the fastest growing and best run economies in the world. Whatever position Germany holds today, it owes to its economic performance engineered by Erhardt. That won't last forever. While Germany has stalled, others have made great progress and have closed a lot of the gap that existed between Germany and themselves.

As for this comment:

"(Although some reforms, would be helpful, but only if they don't destroy our social balance, which is very very precious for us.)"


It is precisely that "social balance" along with illusory notions of "consensus" that have shackled the German economy for far too long already. If the people do not soon accept the need to swallow the bitter reform medicine as Britian and America did 25 years ago, Germany risks decline to a point that it will never recover its position. I see no sign that the German people are prepared to accept sacrifice. Some politician in Germany needs to come out and tell the voters that reform WILL be painful but not carrying out painful reform is the riskiest thing they could do. Given what a risk averse culture Germany has, only that would probably get through to people.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By MichaelE Comments: 8622, member since Sat May 14, 2005
On Fri Sep 23, 2005 06:22 PM
"Angela Merkel who supports almost all the necon ideology as lost her popularity just when German understood that she supports this ideology"



You have GOT to be kidding. Either you are lying or have just demonstrated an absolutely shocking level of ignorance. Merkel would be on the far FAR left of American politics. The political centers of gravity on the two continents are very different. The only party in Germany that would be even REMOTELY electable in America is the FDP.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By Nonogre Comments: 2666, member since Wed Dec 22, 2004
On Fri Sep 23, 2005 06:36 PM
Michael,

I am not Krauty but I am very curious to know (or read)how USA will survive without any kind of "social balance", whatever the pseudo-economical reasoning you could try to make.

Economist and Pedagogues are the only professions on Earth which don't need to say something which corespond to any objective reality to be believed... God save these surviving specimens from Middle Age... strange that there only argument is always (for both) to be modern... "Modernity, modernity..." is a slogan which allow them to say all and whatever.

I am very glad to live in "Old Europe", where our states have a chance to survive to the following decades, because we take care about "social balance".
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By Nonogre Comments: 2666, member since Wed Dec 22, 2004
On Fri Sep 23, 2005 06:47 PM
Either you are lying or have just demonstrated an absolutely shocking level of ignorance. Merkel would be on the far FAR left of American politics.


I think you have missed a point... Schroder was very unpopular and until Merkel has shown her program, nobody could bet a cent on Schroder. Because her program was too close to the USAnians view for German citizen, her popularity drop in a few days and Schroder could earn the few points he needed, as a less evil.

USA way of thinking is a scarecrow... not only in Germany...
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By MichaelE Comments: 8622, member since Sat May 14, 2005
On Fri Sep 23, 2005 07:44 PM
"I am not Krauty but I am very curious to know (or read)how USA will survive without any kind of "social balance", whatever the pseudo-economical reasoning you could try to make."


Simple. Our "social balance" is an open and mobile society in which anyone who wants it can obtain higher education and make a success of their life...without the dead hand of the state strangling them at every turn in a sea of red tape and without a greedy grasping state run by a handful of self selected elites who claim to know what's best for us stealing (taxing) away the benefits of their hard work.

We've never had the much cherished "consensus" Euros go on and on about nor the "social(ist) balance" they so love. Yet, in little more than 200 years America rose from being a poor third rate little backwater to being the greatest power on earth. Its amazing what a free people can accomplish when they aren't held down by petty bureaucrats and self serving elites.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By MichaelE Comments: 8622, member since Sat May 14, 2005
On Fri Sep 23, 2005 07:47 PM
"USA way of thinking is a scarecrow... not only in Germany..."


Interesting analogy since most scarecrows are in fact strawmen and that's exactly what America is to Eurosocialists-a straw man. The picture they paint is so ridiculously false as to not even be worth bothering to point out how wrong they are in a myriad of different areas. I would add that it is precisely the fear of "brutal capitalism" and all other such worn out socialist claptrap that has caused Western Europe to fall into the state of serious decline it finds itself in today.
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Bombs_Away_LeMaymember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 12051, member since Mon Jan 06, 2003
On Fri Sep 23, 2005 07:50 PM
Edited by Bombs_Away_LeMay (53615) on 2005-09-23 20:03:48
Hi Krauty,

That's understandable, if I would own a company I would wait for a good economic climate before I would take that step


Bull shit. Germany is the world's largest exporter. Are you trying to tell me it cannot simultaneously innovate and then export new innovative products? Of course it can be done. However, no one wants to risk going out on his or her own and do so. It's far easier to drink cafe while sitting on one's ass at some nondescript Siemen's office dreaming about the two weeks in Phuket next January and the six weeks in the Schwarwalde, or Majorca next summer.

Do you know anything about Germany? Do you believe anything some idiot writes in an article? Just ask yourself one question: If the statement above is true, why is Germany the third largest economy in the world?


Momentum-and resting on the laurels of the two previous generations of extremely hard working and not risk averse Germans.

Why are we still export champion in the world despite of seven years with a red-green government? Why was Schröder called "Genosse der Bosse" and why do so many managers in the economy love him more than Frau Merkel of the CDU?


Again, momentum. As for why was the dwarf from Hannover called by some the "Genosse der Bosse", who cares? Lot's of Greens and even members of his own SPD have called him a pseudo fascist, while many others have called him a totally inept left wing socialist. What's your point?

Of course we can and we have. In its long industrial history, Germany has had some of the most notable entrepreneurs. Just look in a dictionary


I am talking about in the last 30 or 40 years or so, post-Adenauer. Well, who are they? Axel Springer?! :O

We don't need any politicians and we don't need to wait for their reforms


A laudable attitude Krauty. For better or for worse, they are the ones who introduce legislation. It is they who can propose to cut taxes, cut back all those free billions to the Brussels politburo, cut back the ridiculous welfare state, etc.

But you miss the point, Krauty. Your "social model" that you say you love so much cannot be sustained without a very strong tax base-a damn good and growing economy.

Thing is, Germany is stuck. Zero percent economic growth-and even a contraction recently? Compare that to the 50's, 60's, 70's and even 80's Germany. Obviously something is very, very wrong. But nobody wants to change anything...because they all dream of those two weeks in Phuket and Majorca in summer. They won't last for much longer, Krauty, the way things are going you know. The world is becoming smaller every day with lots and lots more people in China, in India, in America, in Britain, in Australia, in Japan, in Korea, etc, who all can make, for example, damn nice cars for 1/2 the price of Daimler and VW.

So, at this point, it might be long since time that Germany got off its ass and took a look at a more liberal form of capitalism. America's economic model is the most powerful generator of wealth in the history of free market democratic capitalism. It might be too "unsocial" for you guys-for the sake of argument I am not going to debate which is better-but [i]something[i/] has to generate growth in Germany to pay for all your handouts and subsidies-and even Germany being the world's largest exporter is not enough. That should tell you something right there.

As for knowing something about Germany...Hell yes. Been there a number of times. A German engineering firm from Darmstadt also hired my Dad in the 80's to start a US division of their firm here. He's retired now but his patents are feeding lots of people's family's these days-even many German ones ;)
re: The German politicians are clueless and deserved what they got from the voters en>fr fr>en
By Krauty Comments: 738, member since Thu Feb 19, 2004
On Sat Sep 24, 2005 04:40 AM
MichaelE:
By that measurement, Germany has performed exceptionally poorly by any standard since the early 90's-though the country started fading in the late 70's.


Bombs:
Thing is, Germany is stuck. Zero percent economic growth-and even a contraction recently? Compare that to the 50's, 60's, 70's and even 80's Germany. Obviously something is very, very wrong.


Of course, we are unhappy with our current growth rate and we would love to have more. But you have to remain cool and look for the causes:
a) We are a very rich society. It is completely illusional to have again growth rates like in the 50s or 60s.
b) We have to bear the economic problems of the German union. Yes, it is an old argument, but is is still a valid one. East Germany costs us huge amounts of money.
c) We are holding the European union together by our huge amount of transfer money. If we would cut our expenses to the EU, the whole organisation would fall together. Even in our problematic economic situation we have the responisibility to hold the EU together, we can't count on the British or French in this area.
d) We are a security-oriented society. We are not as dynamic as the American, we will never be and we never want to be. It's is absolutly clear that we are willing to pay the price. Social balance and solidarity are not only some leftist keywords here, they are the very foundation our country is build on.
e) Despite our problems, we are still damned rich. We can afford to go to vacations multiple times a year, we have a really nice standard of living and our companies still belong to the best of the world. It's not that we are close to destruction or something like that. We even lost the status as "sick man of Europe", because other (western) countries have now even less growth.

MichaelE
If the people do not soon accept the need to swallow the bitter reform medicine as Britian and America did 25 years ago, Germany risks decline to a point that it will never recover its position. I see no sign that the German people are prepared to accept sacrifice.

Nearly all Germans (except the voters of the left party (LINKE/PDS)) understands that hard reforms are necessary. Merkel stands for reforms and Schroeder stands for the same. May I remind you that he wanted reelections to show that his hard reform program (Harz IV, Agenda 2010) is supported by the people.

The election result shows that Germans want reforms, even hard ones, but they have to be done and explained in a way that the gap between poor and rich people is not widened.

CDU/FDP is the wrong constellation for that, because only rich people vote for the FDP and Frau Merkel has absolutly no charisma. She can explain nothing to the people, she is an intelligent and cold woman. People were not convinced that this is the right way.

The voters always wanted a grand coalition (CDU/SPD) and they will get it in the end. This way the nasty blocking of reforms in the Bundesrat by the CDU is also not a problem anymore.

MichaelE:
We've never had the much cherished "consensus" Euros go on and on about nor the "social(ist) balance" they so love. Yet, in little more than 200 years America rose from being a poor third rate little backwater to being the greatest power on earth.


Bombs:

So, at this point, it might be long since time that Germany got off its ass and took a look at a more liberal form of capitalism. America's economic model is the most powerful generator of wealth in the history of free market democratic capitalism.


Oh, come on. A new continet full of resources and immigrants. The rise of the United States was clear from the beginning.

By the way, Germany rose from being a totally bombed and occupied country to one of the richest countries in the world in 20 years.

Why do you think the American system is better for us? It isn't. You are paying a high price for your flexibility and growth and we pay a high price for our inflexibility and low growth. And both systems work!

We are quite happy with our "Soziale Marktwirtschaft" (social capitalism) and we see absolutly no need to change the foundations of this system. We will reform it, slowly and with many small steps, but we won't throw it away in a big reform only to see our country destroyed because of some obscure neoliberal and completly ideological theories.

I even see the US moving in our direction with a stronger government and higher taxes and it is the irony of history that the republican Geroge W. Bush is making the first steps.

A German engineering firm from Darmstadt also hired my Dad in the 80's to start a US division of their firm here. He's retired now but his patents are feeding lots of people's family's these days-even many German ones

:)
But then you know that life in Germany is not as bad as you can read in many newspapers (German ones included).

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