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 France French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 10)
en>fr fr>en By NahnCee Comments: 12087, member since Mon Oct 13, 2003On Sat Sep 20, 2008 04:13 PM
A secret NATO review obtained by The Globe and Mail shows that the French who were killed in August did not have enough bullets, radios and other equipment. By contrast, the insurgents were dangerously well prepared. /// MICHAEL YON SAYS: I was able to carefully read the secret NATO/ISAF report cited in this news story, which does a good job of reporting the facts in the report. Photographs published in the report showed very accurate fire on the French vehicles, which supports the claim that the Taliban are becoming more proficient with their small arms fire. The document also indicated that the Taliban had used armor piercing bullets in the ambush. The French soldiers were completely unprepared for this level of combat. Apparently, the survivors were rescued by American forces, including "Green Berets" who were nearby. ///FROM THE COMMENTS: "Unfortunately the mental Maginot Line behind which most Europeans live is constructed of the following blocks, among others: - Americans are in general stupid, and their troops aren't that good. - The American armed forces are walking all over the Islamists on the field of battle. - Consequently Islamists are ludicrously inept fighters, and not a threat. Their errors are on display here, for those who have eyes to see."
It was mid-afternoon when a tribal elder invited a U.S. military commander for a quiet chat in a garden. His village was surrounded by foreign troops, hunting around the mountain valley in search of infiltrators from Pakistan rumoured to be lurking in the barren hills.
Thirty soldiers from a French airborne platoon wandered farthest from the village, exploring a steep slope covered with rocks and scrubby vegetation under a high ridge.
That hill would soon become a killing ground, scene of the deadliest ambush against international forces since 2001, and the latest troubling sign that the insurgents are mastering the art of guerrilla war.
A NATO report on the incident obtained by The Globe and Mail provides the most in-depth account so far of an attack on Aug. 18 that shook the countries involved in the increasingly bloody campaign. The NATO report, marked “secret,” reveals woefully unprepared French troops surprised by well-armed insurgents in a valley east of Kabul. Ten soldiers were killed, the report concludes, but the other soldiers were lucky to escape without more deaths.
The French did not have enough bullets, radios and other equipment, the report said. The troops were forced to abandon a counterattack when the weapons on their vehicles ran out of ammunition only 90 minutes into a battle that stretched over two days. One French platoon had only a single radio and it was quickly disabled, leaving them unable to call for help. Chillingly, in an indication that the French troopers may have been at the mercy of their attackers, the dead soldiers from that platoon “showed signs of being killed at close range,” the report said.
By contrast, the insurgents were dangerously well prepared. The investigation found evidence of well-trained snipers among the guerrillas – highly unusual, because the Taliban are frequently mocked for their poor marksmanship – and indications they were supplied with incendiary bullets designed to punch holes in armour.
Insurgents have spread rumours in recent weeks that they captured French soldiers during the ambush, perhaps even videotaping their executions. “Maybe I will make her my wife,” said Mullah Rahmatullah, a local commander, describing a captive female soldier in a boastful conversation with a researcher for The Globe and Mail. Other rumours described French soldiers dying of stab wounds.
But senior Western officials say this was a disinformation campaign by the Taliban, who notoriously exaggerate their victories. The classified military review concludes that all French dead were killed by insurgent fire, except one soldier who died in a vehicle accident.
The French military declined to comment for this article, but French officers have previously spoken about the ambush in fatalistic tones, as if the insurgents inevitably score an occasional success.
“Our comrades fell during an ambush. They couldn't have done anything. It's a tactic as old as Herod,” a French officer told Le Figaro, a daily newspaper in Paris.
But only a swift rescue mission by other international forces prevented more serious losses, the report said, also crediting a heroic performance by a French intelligence officer who was wounded in the leg but did not stop leading his troops.
“This contact could have been much worse,” the report said.
Military forces routinely conduct so-called “after-action” reviews in the wake of major incidents; in keeping with the usual practice, the report on the French ambush examines only the battle itself, on Aug. 18 and 19, in the Uzbin valley about 40 kilometres east of Kabul.
But other analysts have looked at the incident in a broader context, speculating that trends in the Uzbin valley, and beyond, may have contributed to the deadly incident. Some observers connect the French ambush with attacks that killed nine American soldiers in July and another that killed three Canadians earlier this month, all of them examples of bold strikes against international forces by insurgents who seem increasingly skilled at guerrilla warfare.Unlike the crude tactics witnessed by Canadian troops in 2006, when the insurgents dug trenches and bunkers, camping out in groups of several hundred and making themselves easy targets for aerial bombing, insurgents in the recent high-profile attacks have gathered ad-hoc units by pulling together many small bands of fighters for specific missions.
A similar, temporary grouping of fighters assembled before the French ambush, two Western security officials said, adding that the attackers cannot be described as purely Taliban; they likely included fighters from the Taliban movement, but also from Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's Hizb-i-Islami network, and perhaps from other groups.
Senior officials said they suspect the involvement of Hazrat Noor, an extremist leader from South Waziristan, in the lawless tribal areas of Pakistan. A report in the French magazine Paris Match suggested a local commander named Farouki may be responsible. Yet another insurgent leader, Mullah Rahmatullah, has also taken credit for the ambush. Originally a commander for Hizb-i-Islami in the Uzbin valley, Mr. Rahmatullah now reputedly gets funding for his activities from both the Taliban and Mr. Hekmatyar. All reports may be correct, observers say, assuming that many groups co-operated on the attack.
(continued ...)
www.theglobeandmail.com . . .
///
Question for French readers: are you confident that changes have been made in Afghanistan so that French fighters won't have to suffer this sort of humiliation, defeat and death again in the future? 49 Replies to French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) en>fr fr>en By chevy Comments: 3728, member since Tue Nov 16, 2004On Sat Sep 20, 2008 04:34 PM
To bad this happened. And I hope the french learn from thier mistacks. | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By Padania Comments: 25146, member since Sat Sep 11, 2004On Sat Sep 20, 2008 04:48 PM
Question for French readers: are you confident that changes have been made in Afghanistan so that French fighters won't have to suffer this sort of humiliation, defeat and death again in the future?
The french are like little pets: they bark, bark and bark.. but they do nothing then.. so don't worry. I doubt they will answer you.. i doubt they know what pride means. | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) en>fr fr>en By Francestinks Comments: 940, member since Sun Mar 05, 2006On Sat Sep 20, 2008 04:51 PM
well the french should go back to the kitchen. | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By NahnCee Comments: 12087, member since Mon Oct 13, 2003On Sat Sep 20, 2008 04:57 PM
THe part that is infuriating to me is they didn't have enough bullets.
They. Didn't. Have. Enough. Bullets.
How can that be?
The French are fighting savages communicating with whistles in a 14th Century backwater and they didn't have enough bullets. Someone seriously needs to be handed his head on a platter for that particular little item.
Which leads to my question: Will they have enough bullets next time? | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 3)
en>fr fr>en By LMAO  Comments: 5992, member since Sun Nov 06, 2005On Sat Sep 20, 2008 05:01 PM
It sucks when anyone gets KIA. Thou I do believe that when you are in a combat zone, you bring all the bullets you can carry, and then some extra just the fuck in case. | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) en>fr fr>en By MadRusski Comments: 25976, member since Mon Aug 16, 2004On Sat Sep 20, 2008 05:13 PM
However is doing logistics for French should be put in jail | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By abraracoursix Comments: 3067, member since Wed Jan 05, 2005On Sat Sep 20, 2008 05:40 PM
I hope and think mistake which can have been done there won't happen anymore and i don't think so.
As you all know here, poll made after (even before) the ambush showed that French people didn't want their army to be sent in Afghanistan (Please the ignorants, don't say "cowards" because poll in UK or USA shows the same result, even worse!).
Military must have had some pressure from government that things like that don't happen anymore
Personnaly, it makes me sick to think that French soldiers died because went in an operation completly unprepared! those guys had only very few monts of military life before being sent there! Despite that, despite the fact they were completly outnumbered, they acted with bravoure and deserve resepct. | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By Francestinks Comments: 940, member since Sun Mar 05, 2006On Sat Sep 20, 2008 06:12 PM
The french don t care when soldiers of other nations are killed in Afghanistan, why should we care when they are killed? I don't! | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By Francestinks Comments: 940, member since Sun Mar 05, 2006On Sat Sep 20, 2008 06:21 PM
Americans, I remind you one of three french backed Saddam in the Gulf war, so they wanted to see the US soldiers dead and defeated!
So no pity for the french!
www.timesonline.co.uk . . . | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) en>fr fr>en By Francestinks Comments: 940, member since Sun Mar 05, 2006On Sat Sep 20, 2008 06:24 PM
A second poll, in Le Monde, showing that only a third of the French felt that they were on the same side as the Americans and British, and that another third desired outright Iraqi victory over “les anglo-saxons”. | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By I_brake_4_camels Comments: 12052, member since Thu Feb 13, 2003On Sat Sep 20, 2008 06:31 PM
This sounds a lot like WW1: brave troops, ineptly led. | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 20541, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Sat Sep 20, 2008 06:37 PM
Americans, saving french,....How “nostalgic” | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 20541, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Sat Sep 20, 2008 06:41 PM
French people didn't want their army to be sent in Afghanistan (Please the ignorants, don't say "cowards" because poll in UK or USA shows the same result, even worse!).
I can definitely confirm what abraracoursix has said,.. there are MANY polls here in the USA that show that US citizens didn’t want the French army send into Afghanistan.
YOU SUCK! | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By NahnCee Comments: 12087, member since Mon Oct 13, 2003On Sat Sep 20, 2008 07:03 PM
I agree with Abra that the dead and the living who fought alongside them in that fight deserve respect. If you read the tory, it sounds like some of them died in hand-to-hand combat which happened because THEY DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH BULLETS. Shades of Custer's Last Stand.
Russki - I hope it is *just* a supply/routing problem. The thought occurs to wonder if France can afford to send enough bullets. | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By flyindutchman  Comments: 6925, member since Mon Jul 05, 2004On Sat Sep 20, 2008 07:45 PM
THe part that is infuriating to me is they didn't have enough bullets.
They. Didn't. Have. Enough. Bullets.
How can that be?
.......oops, i think they left the ammo back home.
www.timesonline.co.uk . . . | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 3)
en>fr fr>en By Cazeilles Comments: 8660, member since Wed Apr 09, 2003On Sun Sep 21, 2008 01:43 AM
Edited by Cazeilles (62399) on 2008-09-21 01:44:39
Ambush killing westerns soldiers by dozen had already happened. But I don't remember you to have write as much shit than that. The French didn't have enough ammunitions, indeed. They had as much as any soldiers from the US army. You fail to understand it was a fight that lasted more than 6 hours and they were cut out from any supports. They ran out of ammunitions.
It happened because in this area NO COUNTRY accepted to set a foot outside. | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) en>fr fr>en By Fredmasse  Comments: 29117, member since Wed Jan 12, 2005On Sun Sep 21, 2008 01:51 AM
Cazeilles wrote:
Ambush killing westerns soldiers by dozen had already happened. But I don't remember you to have write as much shit than that. The French didn't have enough ammunitions, indeed. They had as much as any soldiers from the US army. You fail to understand it was a fight that lasted more than 6 hours and they were cut out from any supports. They ran out of ammunitions.
It happened because in this area NO COUNTRY accepted to set a foot outside.
Who said French were coward? | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By BigDaddyCruz  Comments: 16630, member since Mon Mar 10, 2003On Sun Sep 21, 2008 02:24 AM
Fredmasse wrote:
Who said French were coward? Is this a trick question?
Answer=Pretty much the entire planet | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) en>fr fr>en By Fredmasse  Comments: 29117, member since Wed Jan 12, 2005On Sun Sep 21, 2008 08:04 AM
Regarding Talibans or pirates, the French are the only ones who dare to fight for the moment... | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 7)
en>fr fr>en By letarsier59  Comments: 7933, member since Thu Jan 20, 2005On Sun Sep 21, 2008 08:32 AM
rescued by American forces
Really ?
You sent at first a couple of F15 that were unable to do anything, due to the troop imbrication, creating a heavy risk of friendly fire. The A10 that came later were at least able to fire rounds on taleban. Their late arrival was for a good part due to the fact that the yankee team disposing of the laser designation system were far behind (with the Afghan who later ran away). Take note of the engagement of French Caracal helos who fought during the whole night.
The Afghan troops : well, they quickly withdrawn, leaving the French fighting alone, and even left their equipment to the taleban.
The rescue force (you know the guys who really occupy the ground and do not get the fuck out once their bombs are dropped) was composed of French troops.
I really wonder who saved who.
The french are like little pets: they bark, bark and bark.. but they do nothing then.. so don't worry. I doubt they will answer you.. i doubt they know what pride means.
If someone here should just keep a low profile, this would be a wop. Oddly enough, the French had just replaced the Italian troops who never experienced any encounter with any taleban group in the area. Why is that ? They never left their camp for a single patrol, maybe ? | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By BigDaddyCruz  Comments: 16630, member since Mon Mar 10, 2003On Sun Sep 21, 2008 09:05 AM
Fredmasse wrote:
Regarding Talibans or pirates, the French are the only ones who dare to fight for the moment... Planet stupid called and said they want you back.
Hes the abridged version of the french fighting the taliban.
french forces arrive in Afghanistan.
french forces stay in Kabul for years and do nothing while US troops fight.
french get ambushed and have to fight.
french get their asses kicked and are ready to surrender.
french get saved by the US once again.
french are ungrateful to Americans.
french try to rewrite history and claim to have done all the fighting once again.
Things never change...
| re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 4)
en>fr fr>en By MatoubLounes  Comments: 5626, member since Sun Jun 04, 2006On Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:33 AM
Nice article, full of good lessons. Let's remember next time a dozen of american soldiers fall that it was because of their "mental Maginot line". | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By BigDaddyCruz  Comments: 16630, member since Mon Mar 10, 2003On Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:43 AM
MatoubLounes wrote:
Nice article, full of good lessons. Let's remember next time a dozen of american soldiers fall that it was because of their "mental Maginot line". Well it certainly wont because they forgot to bring bullets, laser designators, strobes, radios and what not on a combat patrol. | re: French soldiers unprepared for Taliban ambush (rescued by American forces) (karma: 3)
en>fr fr>en By NahnCee Comments: 12087, member since Mon Oct 13, 2003On Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:44 AM
Edited by NahnCee (73634) on 2008-09-21 10:50:46
FRench posters - please don't embarrass yourselves any further by continuing to demonstrate your pigheaded ignorance.
Item the First: Going into Baghdad, American troops were more than once involved in firefights that last several hours, and more than once in fights that lasted continuously for a couple of days. They *did* run out of bullets, and everything else. Reading about those fights, keeping troops supplied is *the* number one priority of the command chain, and the troops themselves continuously monitor how many bullets, mortars, grenades, etc., they have and report back. "Going black" means they've run out. For whatever reason, American troops in Baghdad were never over-run and slaughtered the way these poor Frenchmen were in Afghanistan.
I *seriously* think you French posters need to be agitating loudly and repeatedly to whatever arm of your government is in charge of bullets to make sure this never happens again. Assuming that it will be taken care of it dumb. And lazy. ANd does absolutely no good whatsoever to the men and women on the ground in Afghanistan who must now be totally demoralized by this and need all the support they can get.
Item The Twoth: Just because France is one of the richer nations to have been stupid enough to pay blackmail to the Somali pirates, thereby encouraging them in their depredations, does *not* mean France is the only one dealing with them. If you Google "Navy Somali Pirates" you'll find many instances of the American Navy not only coming to the rescue of a lot of different ships, but actively patrolling the area. My guess is that those boats may have been withdrawn to the Black Sea to harass Putin's fleet of tugboats, but to say that France is the only one dealing with the pirates is really really pathetic and digging. BTW, America doesn't negotiate with them -- we just blow 'em outta the water and then everyone's happy.
Item the Three: France has three options in Afghanistan: (a) withdraw completely because everyone's grannies got sick back home and they need to be there to take care; (b) pull behind lines to relatve safety and be cooks and porta-potty cleaners; or (c) start providing enough support so that French troops can fight effectively. I hope the readers of ff.com here each and every one are actively doing something to be supportive of your troops.
Here in America, we send our troops "care packages" of goodies and letters of support. Has anyone in France set up a similar program so you know where to write to tell the survivors of the ambush how much you appreciate their efforts and to thank them? |
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