It may do it, or may not ...

Lord_Buckhouse wrote:

iciparis posted:

One wonders, of course, whether things might have been different is an Airbus had not been involved, and whether EASA is too close to this European industry. There were, for instance, dark reports in 2005 about EASA suppressing safety concerns about the A-380.

The following year, the House of Commons Transport Committee produced a coruscating report, condemning the EASA, calling it an "accident waiting to happen", and advising the British government not to transfer more power to it.

If true some heads need to roll. Sounds like EASA is in bed with Airbust. And the price is the lives of the passengers.

Some heads need to roll, that is clear. The question is which ones?

Airbus spots a design problem with serious safety implications in 1994 and sends out a recommendation. Only a recommendation? Maybe I'm old fashioned, but in companies I worked for in the marine communications sector, if something similar was noted, we sent out the parts free of charge, the logic being it is our design flaw so it's up to us to put it right. That would seem to put Airbus in the crosshair.

But maybe it doesn't work like that in avionics.

Then there is EASA, which we should remember only came into being in 2003. Was it their role to enforce the change of component as it was a serious safety issue? Was there an organisation fulfilling this role between 94 and 02? If so, who was it?

Or again, was it the legal or moral responsibility of the airlines? Were they knowingly flying dangerous planes?

So many questions, and I'll leave the answers to people more qualified to give them. I agree with you though that passengers' lives was the price paid for incompetence, bad practice or downright criminality, and whoever is responsible for this shouldn't get away with it.

WilyB wrote:

Bremner is a scot who lives in France, with a French wife, and whose kids go to school in France. He writes infotainment for a Murdoch's tabloid.

Does that sound a bell?

Anyone? Anyone?...

Och aye tha noo, Jimmy! Where the fuck is Aeronautical McCaldo. Probably pissed off with spouting on about the Breguet121. I will leave it at that!

The question I have is that pitot heads have been on aircraft for many years, so why are they a problem just on the Airbusses?

Pippin

I raised some questions about this affair. Left the answers to people who know. Unfortunately TheCaledonian is not around for the moment, but he could give an intelligent response to every one of them. On the other hand, as expected, our resident planespotter WilyB has gone silent, I suspect because he hasn't a clue about the answers to any of them.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. Caldo's da man in this field, even if he chooses to goof around. He's only taking the michael out of the frogs, but he knows his stuff.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong, so I invite wily (or any of our other frog 'experts')to answer a simple question. Who is responsible for this accident (criminal act?) Airfix, EASA, Air France or George Bush?

"Nearly 1,000 of the aircraft are flying and until AF447, no passenger had been killed in one."

period

SSaxonsucks wrote:

"Nearly 1,000 of the aircraft are flying and until AF447, no passenger had been killed in one."

period

Now they're falling out of the air like snowflakes.


Ground all Airpus products.

I'm waiting to hear from Wily or the other aircraft experts on FF.

Should France do the right thing to save lives, and ground all Airbus planes now?

iciparis wrote:



Then again, maybe I'm wrong, so I invite wily (or any of our other frog 'experts')to answer a simple question. Who is responsible for this accident (criminal act?) Airfix, EASA, Air France or George Bush?

Just read the news, you'll know.

"Nearly 1,000 of the aircraft are flying and until AF447, no passenger had been killed in one."

period

What about the test pilots who were killed?

de Havilland Comet, 100 deaths - Entire fleet immediately grounded.

DC10 AA Flight 191, 273 deaths - Entire fleet immediately grounded.


A330 AF447 228 deaths - That's OK, no problem?

jagerdr wrote:

de Havilland Comet, 100 deaths - Entire fleet immediately grounded.

False, as usual from Jag: It took several accidents in the first Comets for the authorities to finally admit that there were some major design flaws.

DC10 AA Flight 191, 273 deaths - Entire fleet immediately grounded.

False, again, from Jag: It took several accidents in the first DC-10s for the authorities to finally admit that there were some major design flaws (and cheap US airline maintenance issues too).

A330 AF447 228 deaths - That's OK, no problem?

This is the first A330/340 accident after 15 years and millions of miles flown in perfect safety. No one knows what happened. Unless you're a complete moron like that Bremner clown, why would you want to ground these airplanes?

Who is responsible for this accident (criminal act?) Airfix, EASA, Air France or George Bush?

The investigation will try to establish a probable cause and a tribunal will try to determine responsibilities, if any.

Airfix, EASA and Bush will probably not be party to that. Airbus and Air France will certainly be sued, but I suspect Northrop-Grumman will be the one in deep doo doo.

jagerdr wrote:

de Havilland Comet, 100 deaths - Entire fleet immediately grounded.

DC10 AA Flight 191, 273 deaths - Entire fleet immediately grounded.

A330 AF447 228 deaths - That's OK, no problem?

The Comet and DC-10 had been involved in *multiple* accidents before they were retired/grounded *after* investigation showed that *serious* structural and design issues were to blame.

You need an extremely short attention span to act like a plane crash is something exceptional that requires grounding the entire fleet, regardless of the causes of the crash.

*Thousand* of people have died flying a Boeing 737, how many times has the entire 737 fleet been grounded again ?

Ah but an Airbus A330 crashes for the first time ever in normal operation and you people sit here acting like that's the first airliner crash in decades.

WilyB wrote:

several accidents...

Lily42 wrote:

had been involved in *multiple* accidents

French pilots who actually fly these buses wrote:



Sur A330 / A340, il y a eu 35 incidents liés à ce problème de sondes Pitot, dont 9 cette année, et 6 à Air France. Le vol AF447 pourrait ainsi avoir été la 36ème occurrence, et elle s’est mal terminée.

.
...rough translation:

There have been 35 worldwide reported cases of this Pitot probes issue, including 9 this year. The AF447 flight could have become the 36th case on the list, and it became the first case that never made it back home.

www.eurocockpit.com . . .

Nine incidents of the Pitot icing problem causing a/p dump and temporary loss of control with the A330/A340 this year.


Conclusion:

It don't count unless you kill somebody.

Your views must inspire great confidence among the passenger customer base.

jagerdr wrote:

"Le vol AF447 pourrait ainsi avoir été la 36ème occurrence, "

"Might have been...", or it might not.

Actually I believe an ADIRU failure is a more credible partial cause for AF447, but I will wait for the official accident report.

LOL!!! Frog death traps are finally being identified for what they are. FRANCE - YOU ARE FORBIDDEN FROM PUTTING LIVE NON-FRENCH HUMANS ON YOUR PIECES OF SHIT!

Too fucking funny. And a relief. A decision that will save thousands of lives ...

"If their is any doubt, then there is no doubt."

Robert De Niro - Ronin - 1998.

Wanna live?

1.) Don't fly on a Airbus.
2.) Don't trust the French to properly investigate their own products.

Still have doubt? See rule number 1.

It's not midnight here yet, but it appears as if Airbus might go 24 hours with a fatal crash. Whew! keep fingers crossed

It's not midnight here yet, but it appears as if Airbus might go 24 hours with a fatal crash. Whew! keep fingers crossed

Hehe. Still two hours left.

KotR.

Fly Boeing and meet your doom...
Only in the very last years :

* 1er janvier 2007 un Boeing 737-400 de la compagnie indonésienne Adam Air, vol 574, disparaît avec 102 personnes à bord.

* 7 mars 2007 un Boeing 737-400 de la compagnie indonésienne Garuda Indonesia rate son atterrissage sur une des pistes de l'aéroport de Yogyakarta, dans l'île de Java. Selon la compagnie aérienne, le bilan est de 22 morts et 108 blessés sur les 140 passagers que comptait le vol. Il semblerait que la vitesse trop élevée lors de l'atterrissage soit à l'origine de l'accident.

* 5 mai 2007 un Boeing 737-800 de la compagnie Kenya Airways dont on avait perdu la trace après son décollage au Cameroun, s'écrase. L'appareil transportait 106 passagers et 8 membres d'équipage, en plus du pilote. Il effectuait la liaison entre Abidjan, en Côte d'Ivoire et la capitale du Kenya, Nairobi, avec escale dans la ville camerounaise de Douala. Aucun survivant.

* 20 août 2007 un Boeing 737-800 de la compagnie Taïwanese China Airlines voit un de ses deux réacteurs prendre feu quelques instants après son arrivée au parking à l'aéroport de Naha (Japon). Les 157 passagers et 8 membres d'équipage sont sains et sauf.

* 3 janvier 2008 un Boeing 737-400 de la compagnie Marocaine low cost Atlas Blue filiale de Royal Air Maroc est sorti de la piste lors de son atterrissage à l'aéroport de Deauville St Gatien en France. Il semblerait que la vitesse trop élevée lors de l'atterrissage, aggravée par une présence de verglas en fin de piste, soit à l'origine de l'accident. Les 168 passagers et les 5 membres d'équipages en sont sortis indemnes.

* 21 mars 2008 un Boeing 737-800 de la compagnie irlandaise Ryanair en provenance de l'aéroport de Charleroi a fait une sortie de piste sur l'aéroport de Limoges. Cet accident serait dû au mauvais temps à l'arrivée, notamment au verglas et au vent fort au moment de l'atterrissage. Il y a eu 6 blessés légers.

* 28 juillet 2008 un Boeing 737-800 de la compagnie australienne Qantas a été contraint d'effectuer un atterrissage d'urgence à Adélaïde, dans le sud de l'Australie, après l'ouverture d'une porte en plein vol. L'appareil avait quitté Adélaïde à 18H08 locales pour Melbourne et a fait demi-tour après 37 minutes de vol.

* 24 août 2008 un Boeing 737-200 de la compagnie kirghize Itek Air s'est écrasé au décollage près de l'aéroport de Bichkek, capitale du Kirghizstan. L'avion était en partance pour l'Iran avec 90 personnes à bord dont 65 sont mortes dans l'accident[2].

* 25 août 2008 un Boeing 737-800 de la compagnie Ryanair en provenance de Londres s'est dépressurisé en vol à 8500m d'altitude vers minuit. Le Boeing a dû se poser d'urgence à l'aéroport de Limoges. Il y a eu 16 blessés.

* 14 septembre 2008 un Boeing 737-200 de la compagnie Aeroflot s'est écrasé près de Perm, dans l'Oural. Les 82 passagers, plus un bébé et les cinq membres d'équipages sont tous morts. Le crash a eu lieu peu avant l'atterrissage du vol en provenance de l'aéroport de Sheremetyevo de Moscou.

* 25 février 2009 un Boeing 737-800 TC-JGE sur le vol TK1951 de la compagnie Turkish Airlines s'est écrasé à Amsterdam, près de la piste 18 R de l'aéroport d'Amsterdam-Schiphol. Sur les 127 passagers, neuf sont morts et 50 blessés. Une cinquantaine de personnes furent indemnes. L'avion s'est brisé en trois parties, la partie avant fut la moins endommagée. Le crash a eu lieu peu avant l'atterrissage du vol en provenance de l'aéroport Atatürk de Istanbul.

You will note that the incident list in the English version of Boeing 737 article of Wikipedia is much shorter and less accurate. They list only the "notable incidents".
What a surprise...

Meanwhile in the fair and honest english speaking world :

# January 1, 2007: Adam Air Flight 574, using a 737-400 with 96 passengers and 6 crew members, crashed off the coast of Sulawesi. the occupants were never found, and were presumed dead.
# February 21, 2007: Adam Air Flight 172, using a 737-300, suffered a structural failure when landing at Juanda International Airport. All of the passengers and crew survived.
# March 7, 2007: Garuda Indonesia Flight 200, using a 737-400, crashed upon landing at Adisucipto International Airport. Out of 133 passengers and 7 crew members - 20 passengers and 1 crew member died.
# September 14, 2008 - Aeroflot Flight 821, using an Aeroflot-Nord-operated 737-500, crashed shortly before its scheduled arrival. All 82 passengers and 6 crew members were killed.[14]
# December 20, 2008 - Continental Airlines Flight 1404, a 737-500, veered off the runway and caught fire at Denver International Airport during an attempted departure. There were no casualties.[15]

Franken wrote:


You will note that the incident list in the English version of Boeing 737 article of Wikipedia is much shorter and less accurate. They list only the "notable incidents".
What a surprise...

Wow Franken, you really detailed how Boeing covered-up known flaws in their aircraft. You also did a great job of documenting and addressing number of aircraft and passenger miles. How very french of you.

Franken do you ever get past wikipedia and actually read the investigations of these accidents?