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The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System (karma: 5)  en>fr fr>en
By Ihatefrance Comments: 2490, member since Tue Feb 18, 2003
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 01:56 PM
Edited by Ihatefrance (57072) on 2009-07-02 13:57:10
More than a million and a half Canadians say they can't find a family doctor...In England, people wait so long for dentist appointments that some pull their own teeth...A British paper reports that one hospital tried to save money by not changing bedsheets.

www.reason.com . . .

There's No Such Thing as Free Health Care
The costly truth about Canada's health care system
John Stossel | July 2, 2009


President Obama says government will make health care cheaper and better. But there's no free lunch.

In England, health care is "free"—as long as you don't mind waiting. People wait so long for dentist appointments that some pull their own teeth. At any one time, half a million people are waiting to get into a British hospital. A British paper reports that one hospital tried to save money by not changing bedsheets. Instead of washing sheets, the staff was encouraged to just turn them over.

Obama insists he is not "trying to bring about government-run healthcare."

"But government management does the same thing," says Sally Pipes of the Pacific Research Institute. "To reduce costs they'll have to ration—deny—care."

"People line up for care, some of them die. That's what happens," says Canadian doctor David Gratzer, author of The Cure. He liked Canada's government health care until he started treating patients.

"The more time I spent in the Canadian system, the more I came across people waiting for radiation therapy, waiting for the knee replacement so they could finally walk up to the second floor of their house." "You want to see your neurologist because of your stress headache? No problem! Just wait six months. You want an MRI? No problem! Free as the air! Just wait six months."

Polls show most Canadians like their free health care, but most people aren't sick when the poll-taker calls. Canadian doctors told us the system is cracking. One complained that he can't get heart-attack victims into the ICU.

In America, people wait in emergency rooms, too, but it's much worse in Canada. If you're sick enough to be admitted, the average wait is 23 hours.

"We can't send these patients to other hospitals. Dr. Eric Letovsky told us. "Every other emergency department in the country is just as packed as we are."

More than a million and a half Canadians say they can't find a family doctor. Some towns hold lotteries to determine who gets a doctor. In Norwood, Ontario, 20/20 videotaped a town clerk pulling the names of the lucky winners out of a lottery box. The losers must wait to see a doctor.

Shirley Healy, like many sick Canadians, came to America for surgery. Her doctor in British Columbia told her she had only a few weeks to live because a blocked artery kept her from digesting food. Yet Canadian officials called her surgery "elective."

"The only thing elective about this surgery was I elected to live," she said.

It's true that America's partly profit-driven, partly bureaucratic system is expensive, and sometimes wasteful, but the pursuit of profit reduces waste and costs and gives the world the improvements in medicine that ease pain and save lives.

"[America] is the country of medical innovation. This is where people come when they need treatment," Dr. Gratzer says.

"Literally we're surrounded by medical miracles. Death by cardiovascular disease has dropped by two-thirds in the last 50 years. You've got to pay a price for that type of advancement."

Canada and England don't pay the price because they freeload off American innovation. If America adopted their systems, we could worry less about paying for health care, but we'd get 2009-level care—forever. Government monopolies don't innovate. Profit seekers do.

We saw this in Canada, where we did find one area of medicine that offers easy access to cutting-edge technology—CT scan, endoscopy, thoracoscopy, laparoscopy, etc. It was open 24/7. Patients didn't have to wait.

But you have to bark or meow to get that kind of treatment. Animal care is the one area of medicine that hasn't been taken over by the government. Dogs can get a CT scan in one day. For people, the waiting list is a month.

John Stossel is co-anchor of ABC News' 20/20 and the author of Myth, Lies, and Downright Stupidity.

34 Replies to The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System

re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By fuzzywuzzy2 Comments: 3158, member since Wed Mar 12, 2003
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:00 PM
.
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By ledzep Comments: 13466, member since Tue Jul 12, 2005
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:01 PM
There is so much wrong with your article my head is spinning
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System (karma: 2)  en>fr fr>en
By CafeduMerde Comments: 8472, member since Fri Dec 03, 2004
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:08 PM
ledzep wrote:

There is so much wrong with your article my head is spinning



ok, Ill bite. What?

And please remember to be specific and cite a source, otherwise you are simply lying

Comment #3464105 deleted

re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By ledzep Comments: 13466, member since Tue Jul 12, 2005
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:32 PM
ok, Ill bite. What?


Well a big wrongy in this article is this doozy right here,

"[America] is the country of medical innovation. This is where people come when they need treatment," Dr. Gratzer says.

"Literally we're surrounded by medical miracles. Death by cardiovascular disease has dropped by two-thirds in the last 50 years. You've got to pay a price for that type of advancement."

Canada and England don't pay the price because they freeload off American innovation. If America adopted their systems, we could worry less about paying for health care, but we'd get 2009-level care—forever. Government monopolies don't innovate. Profit seekers do.


Well, see, that is complete myth and bullshit, let's take todays paper for instance:

Canadian-made HIV vaccine close to human trial

It has been 20 years in the making but researchers at the University of Western Ontario say they're confident their HIV vaccine is only months away from being approved for human trials.

Lead researcher Dr. Chil-Yong Kang said Thursday the approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration can come as soon as two or three months.

"We've been working on the HIV virus since 1987. This is a very important day for us," Dr. Kang said while attending a conference in South Korea. "It is a very important milestone for us, this vaccine."

The SAV001-H vaccine has already been tested on monkeys and rats with no side effects.

Dr. Kang, a London, Ont. virology professor, said human DNA is similar to that of these animals, so researchers are optimistic the same vaccine would not produce any adverse effects in humans.

The vaccine was submitted recently to the U.S. for approval because that country already has established systems in place to check out vaccines, Dr. Kang said. If approved there, he added, worldwide acceptance of the drug will quickly follow.

There are also more HIV-positive patients in the U.S. than in Canada, which will make it easier to do a human trial comparing how the vaccine attacks the virus in volunteers.

Dr. Kang, 65, admits that it will still "take years" before results from human trials can be completed.

A South Korean drug research company and its Canadian subsidiary, Sumagen Canada, have obtained patents already for the vaccine in 70 countries.

The Human Immunodeficiency Virus -- or HIV -- attacks the immune system and results in a chronic illness that may lead to the disease known as AIDS.

The Public Health Agency of Canada says that, on average, it takes 10 years before HIV infection progresses into AIDS.

The virus can be transmitted into the bloodstream through unprotected sex, sharing of needles and pregnancy.

It is estimated that as many as 60,000 Canadians live with the HIV virus.

AIDS was first recognized worldwide in 1983. No proven vaccine has ever been produced.

www.nationalpost.com . . .


I would say the only AIDS vaccine invented to date is a pretty serious fuckin medical innovation, and it is Canadian, not American.

Now, I have posted periodical Canadian medical innovations on FF before, and I can ruin this thread by simply flooding it with Canadian medical innovations, but suffice to say, that idiot author as always is a morans.

BTW, we do pretty damn good for a country with a small population, we punch way above our weight class, and our RandD is not Gov. run, it is a mixture of public and private grants and donations, so that too is another lie in this article.
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By ledzep Comments: 13466, member since Tue Jul 12, 2005
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:48 PM
Death by cardiovascular disease has dropped by two-thirds in the last 50 years. You've got to pay a price for that type of advancement."

Canada and England don't pay the price because they freeload off American innovation.


Pffftttt, brain candy drivel for narrow minded innerents.

Canadian researcher awarded for breakthrough discovery in treating narrowed arteries

CALGARY - A breakthrough discovery by Heart and Stroke Foundation researcher Dr. Michael Kutryk that harnesses the bodys own natural defenses to fight narrowing of the arteries has been recognized as a glimpse into the future and potentially one of the biggest advances in cardiology to date.

www.heartandstroke.on.ca . . .



Stossel is a well known reject.
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By mikgof Comments: 8675, member since Tue Feb 17, 2004
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:50 PM
Canada and England don't pay the price because they freeload off American innovation. If America adopted their systems, we could worry less about paying for health care, but we'd get 2009-level care—forever. Government monopolies don't innovate. Profit seekers do



When America does innovate it charges for its products. Both Britain and Canada innovate and they too sell their products for a profit. Certainly American innovation doesn't help Americans too much. Otherwise why is their life expectency an average of 3 years less the European?

One place where Britain and Canada leads is in stem cell research. America is hindered by religious ideology, from taking full advantage of stem cell research.
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By ledzep Comments: 13466, member since Tue Jul 12, 2005
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:56 PM
Medical scientists have announced a major breakthrough by developing a six-in-one pill that can significantly reduce the risk of heart disease and stroke and save millions of lives across the world.

The breakthrough was reported by Indian-born scientist Salim Yusuf of Hamilton, Ontario’s McMaster University at a medical conference in the American city of Orlando and simultaneously announced by the medical journal Lancet.

It was immediately hailed by the international scientific community as an achievement that could revolutionise global healthcare - in both rich and poor countries.

www.asianpacificpost.com . . .


Gonna keep going Cafe, many many articles to post here, and notice something else, that the worlds researchers have been flocking to Canada, not America, I did a big thread on that as well.

Don't believe the hype bra. That by the way, is an American saying. :D
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By Fearless_Leader Comments: 16434, member since Thu Dec 09, 2004
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 03:39 PM
When America does innovate it charges for its products. Both Britain and Canada innovate and they too sell their products for a profit. Certainly American innovation doesn't help Americans too much. Otherwise why is their life expectency an average of 3 years less the European?

I'd rather die at 67 in America than live 70 years in europe or the UK

No contest, I prefer quality over quantity

Comment #3464198 deleted

re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System (karma: 3)  en>fr fr>en
By mikgof Comments: 8675, member since Tue Feb 17, 2004
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 04:49 PM
I'd rather die at 67 in America than live 70 years in europe or the UK

No contest, I prefer quality over quantity


The thread is supposed to be about the superiority of American healthcare. But you spend twice as much per capita on healthcare compared to Europe, but have a worse outcome. When something costs twice as much and it is inferior, it is time to scrap it. Or are Americans too deeply wedded to ideology to even consider change?
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By achilledetroie Comments: 6320, member since Mon Apr 17, 2006
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 05:00 PM
Don't forget the FUUUUUUCKING frongSSh SSocialist Health care system!

It is way too much expensive since people(legals and illegals) believe that they are cured for free and then generate a huge deficit skyrocketting year after year which as actually to be paid by heavy taxes for the Middle-class!

FUCK farSS and ObamohaMED THE wannabe froengSSh
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System (karma: 2)  en>fr fr>en
By ledzep Comments: 13466, member since Tue Jul 12, 2005
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:13 AM
Well, in yesterdays paper you read about the first aids vaccine, from Canada. And now in todays paper,

New triggers found for Alzheimer's

For decades, scientists have struggled to understand what causes Alzheimer's disease, once even suspecting that exposure to aluminum pots and pans played a role. Much is still unknown.

New Canadian research, however, offers a novel clue, concluding that infectious diseases such as bacterial pneumonia and the virus behind cold sores may make people more susceptible to the devastating illness - and indicate a way to guard against Alzheimer's.

If borne out with more study, the findings would make it even more important to aggressively treat infection, while raising the possibility that vaccines against certain bacteria or viruses could actually prevent Alzheimer's, says a paper published in the journal Alzheimer's and Dementia.

"It is kind of counter-intuitive. You think an infection is gone and that is it, right?" said Dr. Paul Verhoeff, a psychiatrist at Toronto's Baycrest brain-research facility. "But think about those cold sores. Whenever your immune system is compromised, those cold sores come back ... We think that some infections can really increase the chance someone could develop Alzheimer's if the person already has other predisposing factors."

About 500,000 Canadians suffer from Alzheimer's disease and that number is expected to double within 25 years, with women being disproportionately afflicted. The main known risk factors for the degenerative brain condition include old age, diabetes, family history and cardiovascular disease.

Dr. Verhoeff and colleagues at Toronto's Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre reviewed several studies conducted over the last decade or so that explored a link between various infections and Alzheimer's.

The most convincing evidence involves Chlamydia pneumoniae, a common bacteria estimated to be present in more than half of American adults and to cause 10-20% of the pneumonia cases outside of hospital.

One autopsy-based study found the bug in the brains of 90% of 19 Alzheimer's patients, and in just 5% of the brains of non-Alzheimer's subjects. Another detected the bacteria located close to the amyloid plaques considered a hallmark of Alzheimer's brains.

The C. pneumoniae microbe does not appear to cause the disease, but may make people more vulnerable to it and accelerate the progress of Alzheimer's, the researchers concluded.

Other studies have unearthed a link between the Herpes simplex virus - another widespread bug that causes cold sores - and Alzheimer's in people with APOE-4, a gene that itself is a risk factor for the disease.

How those and other infections might speed on the onset of Alzheimer's is unclear, but is likely related to the inflammatory effects of the pathogens, Dr. Verhoeff said.

It could be that treating infection will one day help stave off the ravages of Alzheimer's, and that vaccines for the relevant bugs might help prevent it, concludes the paper. The evidence so far, much of it from animal studies, is far from conclusive but "strongly supports" doing more research, the scientists say.

Dr. Jack Diamond, scientific director for the Alzheimer's Society of Canada, said the group's conclusions are "compelling," and may help explain one of the newest twists in the science of the disease. Those plaques, which eventually become toxic to brain cells, and so-called "tangles," which choke off crucial brain processes, have long been considered the direct source of the dementia brought on by Alzheimer's. But recent post-mortem studies have discovered people whose brains had the tell-tale signs, but who didn't suffer from dementia while alive, raising more vexing questions about what triggers the disease, he said.

It is possible that certain infections are an added factor that must be present for symptoms to appear, said Dr. Diamond.

"Could it be this is one of the things that causes the full-blown Alzheimer's disease?" he asked. "Maybe this answers some of the unknowns."

www.nationalpost.com . . .


In just 2 days, innovative research breakthroughs in AIDS and Alzheimers, who's leeching man?
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By PopsFrost Comments: 4252, member since Mon Jan 21, 2008
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:34 AM
mikgof wrote:

Otherwise why is their life expectency an average of 3 years less the European?

I understand why Led is so stupid, he's proud of the fact he's a dropout. If you want to post statistics like this, post a source for the methodolgy for arriving at those numbers. I know you won't because
1) You're too stupid to understand the different ways the numbers are created
2) You just parrot the statistics of the liars who hope to make political points by publishing lies.
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By parigotmember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 12270, member since Fri Jul 23, 2004
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:34 AM
Do you know why you have to wait so long in Canada ? There's too much americans waiting for a treatment at a decent price !


Why do they have medics five times cheaper than in USA ?
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By ledzep Comments: 13466, member since Tue Jul 12, 2005
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:55 AM
I understand why Led is so stupid, he's proud of the fact he's a dropout. If you want to post statistics like this, post a source for the methodolgy for arriving at those numbers. I know you won't because
1) You're too stupid to understand the different ways the numbers are created
2) You just parrot the statistics of the liars who hope to make political points by publishing lies.


No, the only thing you understand is how to pop in a website, hurl baseless lies, never actually contribute to a single debate then runaway cause mom has a peanut butter and jelly sangwich ready for ya.
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By DropThatPie Comments: 611, member since Thu Jun 18, 2009
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:01 AM
ledzep wrote:

There is so much wrong with your article my head is spinning


ledzep like most snowniggers hates facts which show the horrid truth behind their backwater hellhole.
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By ledzep Comments: 13466, member since Tue Jul 12, 2005
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:11 AM


ledzep like most snowniggers hates facts which show the horrid truth behind their backwater hellhole.


Well so far on this post, like all other posts of this kind before it, it is only Zep posting facts and guys like you and pups lost only ever manage to squeak out the occasional "they don't like to talk about facts" and "Zippy is a dropout".

I bet you are angry because you have no Doctor to call your own. :(
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By DropThatPie Comments: 611, member since Thu Jun 18, 2009
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:20 AM
Sorry snowqueen, I have excellent healthcare and staff.

Oh wait I worked for that!!

Imagine that working and earning something.

Promote your failed socialist agenda elsewhere, we are wise to your lies here.
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By mikgof Comments: 8675, member since Tue Feb 17, 2004
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:26 AM
I understand why Led is so stupid, he's proud of the fact he's a dropout. If you want to post statistics like this, post a source for the methodolgy for arriving at those numbers. I know you won't because
1) You're too stupid to understand the different ways the numbers are created
2) You just parrot the statistics of the liars who hope to make political points by publishing lies.


We've had this debate countless times on FF. The plain truth is that just about everyone in the west gets cheaper and better medical care than Americans. And god only knows why, but it is always an American poster who starts a thread about better American healthcare. America leads the world in many things. Healthcare is not one of them.

Life expectancy

# 1 Macau: 84.33 years 2008
# 2 Andorra: 82.67 years 2008
# 3 Japan: 82.07 years 2008
# 4 Singapore: 81.89 years 2008
# 5 San Marino: 81.88 years 2008
# 6 Hong Kong: 81.77 years 2008
# 7 Australia: 81.53 years 2008
# 8 Canada: 81.16 years 2008
# 9 France: 80.87 years 2008
= 10 Switzerland: 80.74 years 2008
= 10 Sweden: 80.74 years 2008
# 12 Guernsey: 80.65 years 2008
# 13 Israel: 80.61 years 2008
# 14 Iceland: 80.55 years 2008
# 15 Anguilla: 80.53 years 2008
# 16 Cayman Islands: 80.32 years 2008
# 17 New Zealand: 80.24 years 2008
# 18 Italy: 80.07 years 2008
# 19 Gibraltar: 80.06 years 2008
# 20 Monaco: 79.96 years 2008
# 21 Liechtenstein: 79.95 years 2008
# 22 Spain: 79.92 years 2008
# 23 Norway: 79.81 years 2008
# 24 Jersey: 79.65 years 2008
# 25 Greece: 79.52 years 2008
# 26 Austria: 79.36 years 2008
# 27 Malta: 79.3 years 2008
# 28 Faroe Islands: 79.29 years 2008
# 29 Netherlands: 79.25 years 2008
= 30 Luxembourg: 79.18 years 2008
= 30 Martinique: 79.18 years 2006
# 32 Germany: 79.1 years 2008
# 33 Belgium: 79.07 years 2008
# 34 Guam: 78.93 years 2008
# 35 Virgin Islands: 78.92 years 2008
# 36 Saint Pierre and Miquelon: 78.91 years 2008
# 37 United Kingdom: 78.85 years 2008
# 38 Finland: 78.82 years 2008
# 39 Man, Isle of: 78.8 years 2008
# 40 Jordan: 78.71 years 2008
# 41 Korea, South: 78.64 years 2008
# 42 Puerto Rico: 78.58 years 2008
# 43 Bosnia and Herzegovina: 78.33 years 2008
# 44 Bermuda: 78.3 years 2008
# 45 Saint Helena: 78.27 years 2008
# 46 Cyprus: 78.15 years 2008
# 47 United States: 78.14 years 2008
# 48 Denmark: 78.13 years 2008
# 49 Ireland: 78.07 years 2008
# 50 Guadeloupe: 78.06 years 2006
# 51 Portugal: 78.04 years 2008
# 52 Albania: 77.78 years 2008
# 53 Taiwan: 77.76 years 2008
# 54 Kuwait: 77.53 years 2008
# 55 Costa Rica: 77.4 years 2008
= 57 Cuba: 77.27 years 2008
= 57 French Guiana: 77.27 years 2006
# 59 Chile: 77.15 years 2008
= 60 Libya: 77.07 years 200

SOURCE: All CIA World Factbooks 18 December 2003 to 18 December 2008

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Health Spending

Health Spending In The United States And The Rest Of The Industrialized World
Gerard F. Anderson, Peter S. Hussey, Bianca K. Frogner and Hugh R. Waters

PROLOGUE: A cycle of unsustainable spending growth followed by fervent cost containment initiatives has been a regular feature of the health care landscape for the past half-century. In such a closely studied field, it is inevitable that a cascade of theory and analysis follows every turn of the cycle; currently, though, there seems to be much less agreement about what is driving growth and how to control it than there was during the 1990s, when managed care and managed competition were all but smothered in a gushing, bipartisan embrace. Observers and analysts are divided about whether prices, technology, aging, waste, inefficiency, the legal system, new disease patterns, corporate consolidation, or profligate providers and consumers are chiefly to blame for the rate of climb. Nor is there much sign of consensus about how to slow the trend. The system has turned decisively toward increased cost sharing, but without any assurance that this strategy will abate growth or merely relocate the burden. Magic-bullet solutions like consumer choice, disease management, evidence-based practice, and information technology pique policymakers’ interest but inevitably fall short of slaying the dragon.

Under these confusing circumstances, Health Affairs is once again publishing its annual analysis of spending trends in thirty member countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). These comparative analyses can’t explain everything. But as this year’s exercise demonstrates, they can be very helpful in putting the conventional wisdom in perspective. Jerry Anderson and his colleagues offer compelling evidence in the following paper that the hoped-for savings from tort reform may be overblown, as are some common preconceptions about the lavish endowments of the U.S. system.

The authors are all affiliated with the Bloomberg School of Public Health at the Johns Hopkins University. Anderson (ganderso@jhsph.edu) is a professor in the Department of Health Policy and Management; Peter Hussey holds a doctorate in health services research from the department; Bianca Frogner is a doctoral candidate there; and Hugh Waters is an assistant professor in the Department of International Health.


Abstract


U.S. citizens spent $5,267 per capita for health care in 2002—53 percent more than any other country. Two possible reasons for the differential are supply constraints that create waiting lists in other countries and the level of malpractice litigation and defensive medicine in the United States. Services that typically have queues in other countries account for only 3 percent of U.S. health spending. The cost of defending U.S. malpractice claims is estimated at $6.5 billion in 2001, only 0.46 percent of total health spending. The two most important reasons for higher U.S. spending appear to be higher incomes and higher medical care prices.

Once again, the latest data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) show that the United States spends much more on health care than any other country. In 2002 the United States spent $5,267 per capita—$1,821 more than Switzerland, which had the second-highest per capita spending, and $3,074 more than the median OECD country.1 The magnitude of this spending differential leads to the logical question: Why is U.S. health spending so much greater than that of other countries?

In previous papers we have argued that the primary reason is that "it’s the prices, stupid." We have shown that the United States pays much higher prices than other countries for pharmaceuticals, hospital stays, and physician visits.2 This price differential continued in 2002. For example, the average cost of a hospital day in the United States in 2002 was $2,434, compared with $870 in Canada and even less in other OECD countries.3 The United States also pays much higher prices for physician services and pharmaceuticals.4

Part of the difference can be explained by higher U.S. incomes and cost of living. However, even after adjusting for each country’s per capita gross domestic product (GDP), U.S. health spending is still $2,037 higher than the predicted value.5 In past papers we have also examined other possible causes, including population aging and administrative complexity. Neither of these factors explains a sizable portion of the higher levels of U.S. health spending.

In this paper we examine two commonly proposed explanations. One is that other countries have constrained the supply of health care resources, particularly for elective services, which has led to waiting lists and lower spending. A second is the threat of malpractice litigation and the resulting defensive medicine in the United States. A common assumption is that malpractice litigation is much more common in the United States, adding to malpractice premiums and, more importantly, the practice of defensive medicine.

We begin by presenting the latest OECD health spending data. We then examine the roles of supply constraints and of malpractice litigation and defensive medicine in explaining the variation in health spending. We conclude that supply constraints and waiting lists do not appear to translate into significant savings in other countries and that malpractice and defensive medicine are responsible for only a small portion of the U.S. spending differential.

Total Health Spending



Per capita health spending in the United States in 2002 was 53 percent above that of Switzerland, the next-highest-spending country, and 140 percent above the OECD median (Exhibit 1).6 Health spending equaled 14.6 percent of U.S. GDP in 2002. Only two other countries, Switzerland and Germany, spent more than 10 percent of their GDP on health care.


In most countries, health spending increased more rapidly than GDP. U.S. health spending as a percentage of GDP increased by 1.6 percentage points from 1992 to 2002 (from 13.0 percent to 14.6 percent)—twice the OECD median increase of 0.8 percentage points. This was during a period when managed care and greater cost sharing were credited for holding down U.S. health spending.7

In every OECD country, growth in health spending outpaced overall inflation during the period 1992–2002. In the United States, real annual growth averaged 3.3 percent, similar to the OECD median of 3.4 percent.8



During 1970–2002 many OECD countries relied on supply constraints to control health spending. In contrast, the United States relied more on demand-side policies. Supply constraints included limiting the number of hospital beds that could be built; controls on the diffusion of medical technology; limits on the number of physicians; limits on what specialties physicians could enter; and drug formularies.9 The difference in U.S. health spending may be attributable to the lack of U.S. supply constraints, the better access to new expensive technologies, and the lack of waiting lists. Here we examine three questions: How does the supply of health care resources in OECD countries compare with that in the United States? To what extent do OECD countries have waiting lists for services, and how are they attempting to reduce them? And how much in potential savings do these waiting lists represent?

Do Americans have access to a greater supply of health care resources? Surprisingly, Americans have access to fewer health care resources than people in most other OECD countries, measured in three major categories: hospital beds per capita, physicians and nurses per capita, and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and computed tomography (CT) scanners per capita.

The number of hospital beds per capita in the United States was in the bottom quartile of OECD countries in 2002 (Exhibit 2). Also, the number of U.S. physicians per capita (2.4) was below the OECD median of 3.1 in 2002. However, the growth rate in the number of U.S. physicians per capita between 1992 and 2002 exceeded the growth rate of the OECD median. Despite this growth, the United States still had fewer physicians per capita than the OECD median in 2002.




The supply of nurses was lower in the United States than the OECD median, and it grew at half the rate of the OECD median of 1.3 percent per year between 1992 and 2002. One area where the United States exceeded the OECD median was the nurse staffing level in acute care hospitals. In 2002 there were 1.4 nurses per U.S. hospital bed, compared with the OECD median of 1.0 nurses per bed.

High-technology medical equipment is frequently cited as the main driver of escalating health spending.10 Although the United States tends to be an early adopter of medical technologies, it does not acquire medical technology at high levels once the technology has diffused widely.11

Although the United States has a relatively low supply of these health care resources, they may be used more efficiently than in other countries. For example, lengths of hospital stay are generally shorter and more intensive, and CT and MRI scanners may be used more frequently than in other countries. The greater intensity of care could explain why the United States has fewer health care resources and pays higher prices for their use.

What is the role of waiting lists? In many countries, persistent waiting lists occur, especially for elective surgical procedures. U.S. patients seldom have to wait very long to receive elective surgery, although waits are common for physician appointments, in emergency rooms, and in other settings.12 One possible explanation for the lower costs in other countries is that the waiting lists for elective procedures hold down use and spending. Several international studies by Robert Blendon and colleagues have surveyed the public about waiting lists for elective surgery in the United States, Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom. In a recent survey about access to care, about a third of the population sampled in Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom believed waiting times to be one of their two biggest health care problems.13 In these countries, the average wait for nonemergency surgery was more than one month, with between a quarter and a third of respondents reporting waiting more than four months. In contrast, only 3 percent of the U.S. population believed that long waiting times were an important issue; average waiting times for nonemergency surgery were less than one month, with only 5 percent of respondents waiting more than four months.

Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom have been investing considerable public resources to reduce waiting times in recent years. Their policies include extra funding of health services, increasing the supply of surgical suites and physicians, improving waiting list management, and shifting services to the private sector.14

How much savings are possible through waiting lists? Waiting lists could explain part of the difference in health spending between the United States and other OECD countries. However, there are several reasons to believe that they explain little of the difference. First, not every OECD country experiences waiting lists, although every country spends much less than the United States on health care. The OECD Waiting Times project identified twelve OECD countries that considered waiting times for elective surgery to be a high priority but also identified seven countries besides the United States that did not perceive that they had a problem with waiting times.15 Health spending in the twelve countries with waiting lists averaged $2,366 per capita, while in the seven countries without waiting lists, it averaged $2,696—both much less than U.S. spending of $5,267 per capita.

A second reason is that the procedures for which waiting lists exist in some countries represent a small part of total health spending. Using U.S. survey data, we calculated the amount of U.S. health spending accounted for by the fifteen procedures that account for most of the waiting lists in Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom.16 Total spending for these procedures in 2001 was $21.9 billion, or only 3 percent of U.S. health spending in that year.17

As noted above, the United States does not have a lower supply of health care resources than other countries with waiting lists and supply constraints, at least at the level of hospital beds, physicians, nurses, and high-tech scanning equipment. It is possible that some countries constrain supply at a lower level, such as surgical suites, thereby limiting use and creating waiting lists. However, countries with perceived problems with waiting lists, including Canada, Australia, and the United Kingdom, are beginning to address these issues.



Medical malpractice litigation is another commonly cited reason for higher U.S. health spending. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) reports that "Americans spend far more per person on the costs of litigation than any other country in the world."18 Is this true, and does the litigious U.S. society contribute to the large spending differential?

We examined data on the number of malpractice claims against physicians and the awards resulting from those claims in the United States, Canada, Australia, and the United Kingdom. All four countries, with legal systems rooted in British law, manage malpractice claims through a British-style tort system. Data on the amount of malpractice awards are not published by the OECD; for this study, we abstracted the data from national reports and databases.19 To determine the impact of malpractice on health spending, we examine three questions: Do U.S. citizens sue more often? Are U.S. settlements and jury awards to plaintiffs higher? And have total malpractice awards been increasing more rapidly in the United States?

Are more malpractice claims filed in the United States? The United States had 50 percent more malpractice claims filed per 1,000 population filed than the United Kingdom and Australia, and 350 percent more than Canada (Exhibit 3). Two-thirds of the U.S. claims were dropped, dismissed, or found in favor of the defendant; in one-third, plaintiffs received compensation after a settlement or judgment. The same distribution of claim results occurred in Canada.20 In the United Kingdom, fewer claims are dropped and dismissed and more are settled; during 1995–2002, 36 percent of claims were dropped, 60 percent were settled, 1 percent were found for the defendant, and 2 percent were found for the plaintiff.21 No data on the distribution of claim results were available for Australia.



Are claim payments higher in the United States? Surprisingly, U.S. malpractice payments (including both cases that resulted in a judgment for the plaintiff and cases resulting in a settlement) were lower, on average, than those in Canada and the United Kingdom. In 2001 the average payment in the United States was $265,103, which was higher than in Australia but 14 percent below Canada and 36 percent below the United Kingdom.22 While U.S. media and public attention have focused on multimillion-dollar awards at the upper end of the range, the average was actually smaller than in Canada and the United Kingdom in 2001.

Possibly the most important and best summary measure of the magnitude of malpractice awards is total payments divided by total population. On this measure, the United States is only slightly higher than the other three countries: $16 per capita in 2001, compared with $12 in the United Kingdom, $10 in Australia, and $4 in Canada. In all four countries, however, malpractice payments represent less than 0.5 percent of health spending.

These figures do not include the legal costs of defending malpractice claims. Legal costs are estimated to average $27,000 per claim in the United States, which adds approximately $1.4 billion in costs to the $4.4 billion paid in settlements and judgments.23 The costs of underwriting insurance against malpractice claims are estimated at an additional 12 percent, or $700 million.24 The cost of defending U.S. malpractice claims, including awards, legal costs, and underwriting costs, was an estimated $6.5 billion in 2001—0.46 percent of total health spending.

In Canada, the total amount spent on malpractice payments was $127 million (adjusted for purchasing power parities, or PPPs) in 2001. An additional $76.9 million (PPP) was spent on legal costs, and $32.5 million was spent on underwriting costs.25 The total cost including awards, legal costs, and underwriting costs was $237 million (PPP) in 2001—0.27 percent of total Canadian health spending. Data on legal and other costs are not available for the other two countries.

Defensive medicine—tests or procedures ordered by physicians to protect against the risk of being sued—could contribute more to health spending than malpractice payments do. Several attempts have been made to quantify the amount spent on defensive medicine, but estimates vary widely. The difficulty lies in determining what services are purely "defensive"—that is, both inappropriate overuse and motivated by fear of litigation. For example, a physician might ask for a second opinion on a difficult diagnosis, mindful of the potential of litigation, but that second opinion could be considered appropriate care. Other services could be considered inappropriate overuse but were motivated by incentives other than the litigation threat, such as payment policy. These gray areas make precise estimates of the cost of defensive medicine extremely difficult.

One estimate of this cost has come from HHS, which estimates that $70–126 billion (5–9 percent) in health spending per year would be saved if malpractice tort reform, similar to policies in California, were passed at the national level.26 This estimate was constructed by extrapolating the findings from a study by Daniel Kessler and Mark McClellan.27 They found lower hospital spending for Medicare patients hospitalized for two diagnoses (acute myocardial infarction and ischemic heart disease) in states with certain types of tort reform. However, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) was unable to replicate these results using a broader set of diagnoses.28 The CBO also found mixed evidence for defensive medicine in the published literature; it thus concluded that "savings from defensive medicine would be small" following tort reform. These two widely divergent conclusions by two government agencies underscore the uncertainty around the contribution of defensive medicine to health spending. If the upper estimate of 9 percent were accurate and for some reason little defensive medicine were practiced in other countries, it could explain some of the differential in per capita health spending between the United States and other OECD countries. Given the number of malpractice claims observed, however, defensive medicine is likely to exist in other countries as well.

Have claim payments been growing more rapidly in the United States? Between 1996 and 2001, U.S. total malpractice payments grew at an average annual rate of 5 percent over inflation. These increases are commonly blamed for the rapid rise in U.S. malpractice premiums. The growth in malpractice awards was even more rapid in Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom: 10–28 percent above inflation (Exhibit 3). These rates indicate that malpractice payments are a growing problem in these countries.

Insurance market dynamics and investment return rates also affect malpractice insurance premiums.29 Insurance markets are organized differently in the four countries. British and Canadian physicians are protected from malpractice litigation risks by a single national organization, with premiums subsidized by the government. Australia has a private insurance system more similar to the U.S. system, but the Australian government subsidizes physicians’ malpractice premiums and reinsures high-cost claims. These arrangements may provide more insulation from malpractice insurance market dynamics for physicians in Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom than for U.S. physicians.30 Nonetheless, the rapid increases in malpractice costs have stimulated debates over new policies in these countries.


Although malpractice litigation is a growing problem in the United States as well as in Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom, there is limited evidence that it is responsible for much of the difference in health spending levels between the United States and these countries. In all four countries, malpractice litigation costs for claims against physicians are small compared with total health spending. Some additional costs may be associated with claims against institutional providers or other clinicians. Increased use of services because of defensive medicine probably contributes more to health spending than the actual costs of litigation, however. Unfortunately, it is difficult to establish how much care is attributable to defensive medicine, in either the United States or other countries. Physicians may practice more defensively in the United States because of the greater frequency of claims. Although those claims on average do not result in larger awards or settlements than in other countries, the process of defending a claim is nonetheless adversarial and can result in a tarnished professional reputation. The upper estimate of 9 percent of additional costs attributable to defensive medicine would explain only part of the higher U.S. health spending. This assumes that there is much less defensive medicine practiced in other countries.

Another piece of conventional wisdom about why U.S. health care costs are so much higher than other countries’ is also probably overstated. It is common for people to wait for nonemergency medical procedures in some OECD countries, but these procedures do not contribute much to health spending. In the United States, the procedures that necessitate waiting lists in other countries would account for only 3 percent of health spending. Other types of services, which are not included in this estimate, also might involve waiting lists in some countries, such as diagnostic tests and physician visits. However, there is some evidence that Americans wait for some of these services, too. In a recent survey, U.S. respondents reported more difficulty making an appointment with a physician quickly; more difficulty getting care on nights, weekends, and holidays; and more frequent delays of treatments because of their cost than was the case with people in other countries.31

The finding that litigation and waiting lists do not explain most of the higher U.S. health spending is perhaps not surprising considering previous research showing that the prices of care, not the amount of care delivered, are the primary difference between the United States and other countries.32 These higher prices are increasingly making health care unaffordable for many Americans.33 Equally troubling, the more-costly U.S. health care has not resulted in demonstrably better technical quality of care or better patient satisfaction with care.34 Future U.S. policies should focus on the prices paid for health services and on improving the quality of those services.



Editor's Notes


This research was supported by a grant from the Commonwealth Fund. The authors thank Jonathan Cylus for preparing the data tables and Randall Bovbjerg and two anonymous reviewers for comments on a draft.



Purchasing power parities (PPPs) were used to adjust for cost-of-living differences between countries.
G.F. Anderson et al., "It’s the Prices, Stupid: Why the United States Is So Different from Other Countries," Health Affairs 23, no. 3 (2003): 89–105.
G.F. Anderson, P.S. Hussey, and J. Cylus, Multinational Comparisons of Health Systems Data, 2005, Commonwealth Fund Chartpack (New York: Commonwealth Fund, forthcoming).
G.F. Anderson et al., "Doughnut Holes and Price Controls," Health Affairs 21 July 2004, content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/abstract/hlthaff.w4.396 (8 April 2005).
We calculated predicted U.S. health spending based on a simple regression of health spending per capita on GDP per capita for OECD countries (excluding the United States) in 2002.
The OECD definition of total health spending is slightly different than that used in the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) National Health Accounts data.
D. Blumenthal, "Controlling Health Care Expenditures," New England Journal of Medicine 344, no. 10 (2001): 766–769.[Free Full Text]
The real growth rate was calculated using each country’s national currency units adjusted for inflation by the country-specific GDP price index.
E. Mossialos and J. Le Grand, Health Care and Cost Containment in the European Union (Brookgate, Vt.: Ashgate Publishing Company, 1999).
J.P. Newhouse, "An Iconoclastic View of Cost Containment," Health Affairs 12 Supp. (1993): 154–171.[Abstract]
E.P. Slade and G.F. Anderson, "The Relationship between Per Capita Income and Diffusion of Medical Technologies," Health Policy 58, no. 1 (2001): 1–14.[CrossRef][Web of Science][Medline]
C. Schoen et al., "Primary Care and Health System Performance: Adults’ Experiences in Five Countries," Health Affairs, 28 October 2004, content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/abstract/hlthaff.w4.487 (8 April 2005).
R.J. Blendon et al., "Inequities in Health Care: A Five-Country Survey," Health Affairs 21, no. 3 (2002): 182–191.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
J. Hurst and L. Siciliani, "Tackling Excessive Waiting Times for Elective Surgery: A Comparison of Policies in Twelve OECD Countries," OECD Health Working Paper (Paris: Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, 7 July 2003).
Ibid.
The procedures are coronary artery bypass graft, cataract extraction, myringoplasty, myringotomy, septoplasty, tonsillectomy and/or adenoidectomy, varicose vein stripping/ligation, hemorrhoidectomy, cholecystectomy, inguinal herniorrhaphy, cystoscopy, prostatectomy, hysterectomy, total hip replacement, and total knee replacement. The procedures were taken from a list compiled by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare of high-volume procedures with significant waiting times. Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, Australian Hospital Statistics 2002–2003 (Canberra: AIHW, 2004), 120–122.
Authors’ calculation using Medical Expenditure Panel Survey (MEPS) 2001 Inpatient, Outpatient, and Office Visit files for the fifteen common elective surgical procedures. Only two-digit International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision (ICD-9) codes are collected in MEPS. This results in an overestimation of the procedure costs because of the generalized categories of procedures.
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, "Addressing the New Health Care Crisis" (Washington: Office of the Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation, 3 March 2003).
The sources for malpractice claims and payments are as follows. Australia: Australian Competition and Consumer Commission; Canada: Canadian Medical Protective Association; United Kingdom: National Health Service Litigation Authority; United States: National Practitioner Data Bank (NPDB) Public Use File (payments) and Physician Insurance Association of America (claims). The number of U.S. claims was estimated by dividing the number of claims for which a payment was reported to the National Provider Data Bank (16,688) by the average proportion of claims resulting in a payment (0.33). The proportion of claims resulting in a payment is based on claims tracked by the Physician Insurance Association of America, which tracks many claims filed in the United States. Australian figures are based on claims opened in 2001 and the payments expected for those claims. U.K. claims figures are for claims opened in 2001. All other figures are based on payments made in 2001.
In Canada in 1998–2002, 62 percent of claims were dropped or dismissed, 29 percent were settled, 7 percent were found for the defendant, and 2 percent were found for the plaintiff.
U.K. Department of Health, "Making Amends," Report by the Chief Medical Officer (London: Department of Health, June 2003).
The comparison of one single year of data across countries obscures changes that are occurring over time. For example, Canadian payments in 2001 included one for a large class-action suit. Excluding that suit, Canadian payments averaged $249,750 (PPP) in 2001. In the United States, malpractice insurance companies are legally required to report all award payments to the NPDB, which is maintained by the Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA). Some settlements may not be reported if the settlement does not name a specific physician. HRSA also has very little infrastructure for enforcement of the regulation. See J.T. Hallinan, "Attempt to Track Malpractice Cases Is Often Thwarted," Wall Street Journal, 27 August 2004. The average reported here does not include installments of multipart payments that are disbursed in years other than 2001. HRSA reports that "most cases" do not include multipart payments. Total payments for 2001 using the NPDB were $4.4 billion. The U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) has estimated payments at $5.2 billion. U.S. Government Accountability Office, Medical Malpractice Insurance: Multiple Factors Have Contributed to Increased Premium Rates, Pub. no. GAO-02-702 (Washington: GAO, June 2003). The private consulting firm Tillinghast–Towers Perrin has estimated $11.4 billion in payments and the costs associated with settling claims against physicians. Its estimate was based on analysis of a proprietary database. Tillinghast–Towers Perrin, U.S. Tort Costs: 2003 Update, February 2003, towersperrin.com . . . (8 April 2005). The Physician Insurance Association of America (PIAA), an association of physician-owned insurance companies, estimates that the average payment for claims against its beneficiaries was $310,215.
P. Beider and S. Hagen, "Limiting Tort Liability for Medical Malpractice," Congressional Budget Office Issue Brief (Washington: CBO, 8 January 2004). The PIAA estimates expenses at $28,801 per claim filed against its beneficiaries.
Tillinghast–Towers Perrin, U.S. Tort Costs.
Canadian Medical Protective Association, 2002 Annual Report, 2003, cmpa-acpm.ca . . . (8 April 2005).
DHHS, "Addressing the New Health Care Crisis."
D. Kessler and M. McClellan, "Do Doctors Practice Defensive Medicine?" Quarterly Journal of Economics 111, no. 2 (1996): 353–390.[CrossRef][Web of Science]
Beider and Hagen, "Limiting Tort Liability for Medical Malpractice."
GAO, Medical Malpractice Insurance.
W.M. Sage, "The Forgotten Third: Liability Insurance and the Medical Malpractice Crisis," Health Affairs 23, no. 4 (2004): 10–21.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
Schoen et al., "Primary Care and Health System Performance."
Anderson et al., "It’s the Prices, Stupid."
U.E. Reinhardt, P.S. Hussey, and G.F. Anderson, "U.S. Health Care Spending in an International Context," Health Affairs 23, no. 3 (2004): 10–25.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
P.S. Hussey et al., "How Does the Quality of Care Compare in Five Countries?" Health Affairs 23, no. 3 (2004): 89–99[Abstract/Free Full Text]; and K. Davis et al., "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall: Looking at the Quality of American Health Care through the Patient’s Lens," January 2004, cmwf.org . . . (8 April 2005).
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By PopsFrost Comments: 4252, member since Mon Jan 21, 2008
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:35 AM
There's nothing like cherry picking your sources is there Led?

www.upi.com . . .

Anecdotal evidence. Can you say 'anecdotal'? They probably didn't cover that in elementary school did they?

The deficiencies in medical systems is well known and to pretend that socialized medicine is a panacea is just fantasy, but then you live in fantasyland, don't you?

Isolationism v containment? What an idiot.

Iran is a liberal place where entrepreneurs can screw there girl friends on the beach. Why don't you stick to being a bully or talking about your favorite shovel?
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By PopsFrost Comments: 4252, member since Mon Jan 21, 2008
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:53 AM
Mikgof,

I'm sure that cutting and pasting an article impresses Ledtard, but it in no way relates to how countries define live birth and how these statistics are calculated. It's very complicated for somebody with the intelligence of a shrew and the education of a dropout.

While the United States reports every case of infant mortality, it has been suggested that some other developed countries do not. A 2006 article in U.S. News & World Report claims that "First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless.[5] And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates.


Now a genius like you is bound to ask "What do infant mortality rates have to do with caluculated life expectancies?" That's a natural question for somebody of your demonstrated intelligence. Let it suffice to say, you should stick to talking about football.

I'm sure all this went right over your head because, after all, you're an idiot.
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System en>fr fr>en
By ledzep Comments: 13466, member since Tue Jul 12, 2005
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:13 PM
Pups lost,

Once again, same shit, I have yet to see one single cogent argument from you. Basically you are one of the lamest posters here, but I enjoy insulting you, because you deserve it.

Now all facts in, the bottom line is this, the biggest story to come out of Canada healthcare wise is "how do we get wait times down".

The only story healthcare wise coming from the US is "The system is broken and we need a complete overhaul"! or "Tens of millions have no healthcare" or "Tens of millions of insured refused proper healthcare" or "medical bankruptcies a plague" or......

I would rather have my headlines anyday than yours.

Regards, fully covered LedZep.
re: The Truth about UK and Canada's Healthcare System (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By PopsFrost Comments: 4252, member since Mon Jan 21, 2008
On Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:21 PM
ledzep wrote:

I would rather have my headlines anyday than yours.

Regards, fully covered LedZep.

So you would rather have 'feel good' headlines than healthcare? If some liberal hack writes "10's of millions have no health care" you believe it? I'm not really surprised. You're the kind of guy who rents a television because it's only $19 per week.
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